Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf) • Hacker News Board

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#51

Post by grandalf » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:21 PM UTC

There is a strong tradition of puritanism in the US, and this post highlights some of the points of tension. Unfortunately, like many such arguments, the author makes what is largely a moral argument and amounts to finger shaking.

The real reason brogrammers are entering the field is b/c money flows have shifted from things like investment banking and law into technology. It's the same reason more women, minorities, poets, etc. are entering the field as well (more opportunity in general) so it's hard to paint it as a bad thing.

Tech culture is broadly liberal (with a small L). All kinds of nerds and geeks have found a home here. The conflict is not between true nerds and brogrammers, it's between a liberal/open mindset and a closed/puritan mindset. In the former, there will occasionally be a few annoying people who can't handle a few drinks; in the latter alcohol is a poison that corrupts all who partake and erodes beneficial social order.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#52

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:22 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #36

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have multiple events where the vibe is different, a less boozy conference might attract people who would otherwise go to the boozy one if it results in a more productive outcome etc.

Once your community is big enough it gets increasingly unlikely that a single planning committee will be able to design an event that appeals to everyone and that is ok, nobody has a monopoly on Javascript conferences.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#53

Post by cmiles74 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:23 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #41

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. An analogy would be a conference where the evenings entertainment is a competition to see who can piss up a wall the highest. It wouldn't exclude women per se, because they don't have to join in if they don't want to, but you can reasonably…

It seems reasonable to assume that there are far less women interested in, as you say, "pissing up a wall" then there would be women who enjoy drinks and beer; this doesn't seem like a fair analogy.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#54

Post by shangxiao » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:24 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #9

On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky. I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party. edit: changed 'creativ…

So do you pine for the old IBM days?

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#55

Post by ig1 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:24 PM UTC

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

What about recovering alcoholics, people who avoid alcohol for religious reasons, and people under the drinking age ?

There are clearly groups who don't or can't go to events because alcohol plays a prominent part (i.e other people drinking impacts them).

There's obviously trade-offs between different groups of participants, but they need to be made consciously with awareness of the consequences rather than because they're the default.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#56

Post by cmiles74 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:28 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #5

Interesting, I didn't realize this kind of thing happened. Most of the conferences I go to do have social events in bars or restaurants, sometimes with open bars, but they don't really have an "epic party, man!" kind of feel, or sloppy-drunk people. Culturally dependent, maybe? In much of Europe it's normal to socialize in a bar or restaurant at lunch or dinner or afterwards. But you'd be having some wine or beer and…

I agree, I haven't experienced this either. Indeed, there are many after-hour events that take place at bars or brew pubs but it wasn't a big drunken mess. I also wonder if it might be an age thing, when I was in my twenties it often seemed like drunken-ess was the end-goal.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#57

Post by runj__ » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:28 PM UTC

mtrimpe wrote: post #36

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events. I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me. > The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant. Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor. That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't…

This is a fair argument.

I have not seen the binge drinking the author brings up other than once at a hackathon but I can see how people could feel discomfort with really really drunk people.

People drink at conferences and meetups but I feel that you could listen to all of the talks without being made fun of for not drinking (to be fair: in in my experience).

Not hanging around after the talks or whatever is over isn't that weird, even finding the people who do not "binge drink" and staying and talking to them wouldn't be impossible.

That said, I feel that it's a different story when it comes to drinking at your workplace.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#58

Post by donw » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:28 PM UTC

untothebreach wrote: post #34

donw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference. The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.

That's good to know. I definitely did not mean to imply that the Ruby community was "the problem."

No worries -- I didn't interpret it that way at all.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#59

Post by Kudos » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:28 PM UTC

ig1 wrote: post #55

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

What about recovering alcoholics, people who avoid alcohol for religious reasons, and people under the drinking age ? There are clearly groups who don't or can't go to events because alcohol plays a prominent part (i.e other people drinking impacts them). There's obviously trade-offs between different groups of participants, but they need to be made consciously with awareness of the consequences rather than because t…

There are also a bunch people, like me, who can't (or shouldn't) drink because of medical conditions.

At the same time though, it doesn't bother me when people are drinking in moderation and not set on getting hammered.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#60

Post by rmk2 » Thu, Jan 30, 2014, 1:31 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #49

rmk2 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "everyone else is white" then why should they catter to the non-white demographic? Should they spoil everyone's fun to make a minority feel "included"? I understand that the STATED purpose of the event is not "being white". But an unstated and real consideration for people attending is the opportunity of being with one or several white friends. Not everything operates on the "stated" level. A better way would be t…

Sarcasm is the lowest form of argument. Go on, expand it out: what are the reasons why that would be a bad thing? Do these reasons also apply to the view in the grandparent post? If so, argue with those reasons.

My bad.[1]

The computing world isn't the most inclusive to begin with, and by additionally alienating parts of the audience that hasn't already been excluded on other grounds (gender, race), none of this gets any better. Conferences carry a lot of symbolic power, because they are representative of a given community, moreso than a forum or a mailing list, where some voices will always be louder than others. The conferences, then, have the onus on them to accommodate a wider audience of people; they also have the chance to shape their respective communities. By creating what has been described by others as "fret party" environments, these communities severly curtail their wider appeal. It also doesn't help the image of programming being a non-respectable profession. If you behave like and cater to the "frat-bros", expect to be treated like one.

Most academic conferences seem to handle this better, with drinks receptions, dinners or evening programme separated from the actual conference content. If alcohol is served, that usually means sparkling wine and/or wine, with juices as alternative. Additionally, conference proceedings and drinking are strictly separated. I think the conference dinner, as a whole, is a better format, because it still enables you to chat to other attendees, but since everybody is already eating together and thus connected by a common activity, drinking doesn't have to be the one thing connecting everybody. Whether somebody then has a drink with their meal or not doesn't matter so much.

[1]: This might be sarcasm.