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Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

old.ryanfunduk.com

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Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#31

Post by dictum »

stdbrouw wrote: post #28
mhurron wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a personal problem, because no, it's not hard to say that.

Because peer pressure only exists in high school? And maybe it's not hard to say no to a single drink, but a lot of these events go past midnight, and the reason they "work" is because the next day when you pass each other in the hallway you can say "woah, bit of a hangover too?" and, silly as it sounds, bond over that. Good luck with that if you're only going to drink water, surrounded by people getting progressivel…

Somewhere around the age of 18 and 19, most people develop the ability to not care about what other people think about their activities and preferences.

Those who don't develop it before 30 or so will always suffer at the hands of those who do, and the latter group includes people who consider themselves inclusive and socially conscious.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#33

Post by Nursie »

blowski wrote: post #9

On the whole, I agree with this. Unfortunately, as programming has gone mainstream, so too has its culture. In London at least, offices and coworking spaces seem to take more inspiration from Mad Magazine than Xerox PARC, like somehow we'd write better software if we were just a bit more wacky. I for one would love programming environments to look a bit more grown up and less like a frat party. edit: changed 'creativ…

There are plenty of mature workspaces in London, with people that take the job seriously and consider their role akin to engineering rather than playtime at the zoo.

Never have worked with the old-street set though, so I guess YMMV.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#34

Post by untothebreach »

donw wrote: post #30
untothebreach wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then, there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?

Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference. The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.

That's good to know. I definitely did not mean to imply that the Ruby community was "the problem."

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#35

Post by dictum »

donw wrote: post #30
untothebreach wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the conferences I've been to (in the U.S.) have been like he describes either. The post is from 2012, and if I remember correctly, especially then, there was a stereotype of the Ruby community for having more than it's share of "brogrammers," so maybe it's a community thing?

Have been to several Ruby conferences over the past year, and I've never seen this sort of thing during a conference. The after-parties can get a little nuts, but those aren't handled by the organizers -- and it'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.

>It'd be more than a little asinine to tell a group of adults what they can and can't do in their spare time.

I take it you haven't used this global network called Internet, and your comment was sent through some kind of SMS proxy.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#36

Post by mtrimpe »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

> If you feel like the event is too immature, don't show up or organize your own events.

I don't know how you meant that, but it reads very much like STFU or GTFO to me.

> The reason there's so much alcohol is because it acts as a social lubricant.

Except that alcohol is more than just a social lubricant; it's a disinhibitor.

That in and of itself creates an exclusionary environment for many women, because they can't rely on physical dominance to counteract the dangers that come with a large group of uninhibited men.

Apart from that; the simple fact that it might not be appealing to a large group of people you wish to involve in your community should be reason enough in- and of itself, much like how insisting on things like dirt-bike racing for team activities might be considered exclusionary for certain groups whom this would appeal less to.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#37

Post by drcode »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

To be fair, OP makes it very clear that his concern is minor compared to gender/ethnic exclusion.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#38

Post by pc86 »

oskarth wrote: post #22

There's a world of difference between being excluded because you are of a certain gender, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation and because you don't like a certain beverage. Hey, I don't like the naive techno-optimist prevalent in many technology events, but that doesn't in any way make me excluded. It just means I might have a different attitude and hold a minority opinion compared to my peers, and that I find…

I think this is the correct response. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, and if it makes you uncomfortable, don’t attend. People are not doing Jaeger bombs in the convention center aisle during a presentation, and I feel like the author is trying to make that argument.

Nobody is being forced to drink, but I have a feeling that if the author were to make his own conference, drinking would be explicitly forbidden. That’s the biggest problem with prohibitionists of any type (whether it’s alcohol, recreational marijuana, or whatever). It’s not enough that something is optional and they’re not forced to partake. They must force you not to partake.

Re: Our Culture of Exclusion (or, why I'm not going to *conf)

#39

Post by kyro »

I hate alcohol. It's putrid to me. I've tried drinking everything from some of the better brewed beers to sweeter wines, and I just can't stand the taste. So when I go to a social event that heavily involves drinking, I opt for a water or a soda. Not once has anyone treated me differently, or have I felt that my interactions with others were at all hindered by my lack of alcohol intake.

I think this is more a personal issue, both with the person not drinking, and the people who are. I imagine a lot of these conferences tend to attract a younger demographic than what I'm used to seeing in my field (medicine) where people have reached an age where they just don't care if you're drinking or not, and so perhaps there's a component of immaturity here.

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