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Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

theguardian.com

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Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#91

Post by handsomeransoms »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #67
ck2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you respect Manning, please stop saying "he" and "guy".

This is clearly something that we as a society are going to have to wrestle with. It seems reasonable to me that this person, having XY chromosomes and all the hardware that go with them, may be correctly referred to using masculine pronouns. There's something to be said for respecting the wishes of the individual in how they'd like to be addressed. But there's definitely a point at which that drifts off into absurdi…

This posts reeks of cisgender privilege [0]. Gender is a social construct, not a biological inevitability, and it is disrespectful to refer to someone as a gender that they have explicitly stated they do not identify with.

I'll let you fill in the comparisons to widespread sexism, racism, and homophobia for yourself. Go back to the leaders of the American civil rights movement and tell them to let things "percolate through society" so they can know "where to draw reasonable lines".

[0] http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Cisgender_privilege

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#92

Post by duaneb »

efdee wrote: post #56
duaneb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if either of them deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, but I believe Manning's sentence is reasonable. I'd like to shake his hand, buy him a beer, thank him personally, but it's a decision he made that has severe consequences for a reason. And while I don't like Snowden at all, I think his actions are much more justifiable from an ethical point of view. It's not like terrorists were unaware the NSA was spying…

"I'd like to shake his [sic] hand, buy him [sic] a beer, thank him [sic] personally", "but I believe Manning's sentence [of 35 years in prison] is reasonable". My jaw dropped to the floor. Assuming that you want to thank her for doing that thing that landed her in prison, there is nothing you can say that can reconcile those two statements for me.

Are they contradictory? There are plenty of criminals I like personally who deserve to serve time for breaking the law.

EDIT: I wouldn't conflate ignorance of her gender and disrespect, it's not anything I've ever heard.

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#93

Post by king_jester »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #67
ck2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you respect Manning, please stop saying "he" and "guy".

This is clearly something that we as a society are going to have to wrestle with. It seems reasonable to me that this person, having XY chromosomes and all the hardware that go with them, may be correctly referred to using masculine pronouns. There's something to be said for respecting the wishes of the individual in how they'd like to be addressed. But there's definitely a point at which that drifts off into absurdi…

> It seems reasonable to me that this person, having XY chromosomes and all the hardware that go with them, may be correctly referred to using masculine pronouns.

Gender != your chromosomes and gender != your "hardware" or any other body part for that matter. Gender is about social identity and structure.

> There's something to be said for respecting the wishes of the individual in how they'd like to be addressed. But there's definitely a point at which that drifts off into absurdity. Just because I can claim descent from Henry VIII doesn't mean that I can reasonably expect people to address me as "lord".

Laying claim to a royal lineage is not the same as having a gender. Also, lord is a title and we are talking about pronouns, things used when talking about anyone.

> So I'm interested in respecting people, but think we need to let this percolate through society first, and determine where to draw reasonable lines, before you accuse someone of disrespect for failing to honor someone's alternate world view.

We already know where to draw reasonable lines: Manning has already publicly stated her gender. You have disrespected this person by misgendering them. Manning's world view is not an "alternate" world view and you are being incredibly transphobic.

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#94

Post by TillE »

handsomeransoms wrote: post #91
CWuestefeld wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is clearly something that we as a society are going to have to wrestle with. It seems reasonable to me that this person, having XY chromosomes and all the hardware that go with them, may be correctly referred to using masculine pronouns. There's something to be said for respecting the wishes of the individual in how they'd like to be addressed. But there's definitely a point at which that drifts off into absurdi…

This posts reeks of cisgender privilege [0]. Gender is a social construct, not a biological inevitability, and it is disrespectful to refer to someone as a gender that they have explicitly stated they do not identify with. I'll let you fill in the comparisons to widespread sexism, racism, and homophobia for yourself. Go back to the leaders of the American civil rights movement and tell them to let things "percolate t…

> Go back to the leaders of the American civil rights movement and tell them to let things "percolate through society" so they can know "where to draw reasonable lines".

Better, read the Letter from a Birmingham Jail, which deals sharply and directly with exactly those sort of suggestions from white people. It's quite wonderful.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.h...

> We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never."

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#95

Post by bostonpete »

ck2 wrote: post #55
duaneb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if either of them deserve the Nobel Peace Prize, but I believe Manning's sentence is reasonable. I'd like to shake his hand, buy him a beer, thank him personally, but it's a decision he made that has severe consequences for a reason. And while I don't like Snowden at all, I think his actions are much more justifiable from an ethical point of view. It's not like terrorists were unaware the NSA was spying…

So by your standard, Martin Luther King Jr. should be getting out of prison just about now? Manning was a whistlerblower, just like Snowden, with less power and ability for flight to defend themselves. There was no personal gain ever intended or achieved, yet great personal loss even in the best outcome. They saw something very wrong happening and had little to no way to say "hey there are some incredibly powerful fo…

I don't purport to be an expert on either of these cases, but my impression as a casual observer was that Mannings leak was just a massive dump of classified documents without any attempt to be selective about which information needed to come to light.

Any sizable dump of classified documents is likely to have some damning pieces in there but that doesn't necessarily justify blindly leaking massive amounts of documents. I think Manning would have gotten a more favorable response by more people if he had been just a bit selective in what he leaked.

Again, I don't have deep knowledge on either of these cases compared to some around here so I'll concede that maybe I'm wrong on some of my facts...?

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#96

Post by nivla »

Lazare wrote: post #17

Some may find the list of people who can nominate someone for the Nobel peace prize interesting. From their website: Members of national assemblies and governments of states; Members of international courts; University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes; Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;…

> I believe Bush was nominated repeatedly.

Ha even bizzaring, Adolf Hitler was once nominated. [1]

[1] http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/facts/peace/

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#97

Post by Pxtl »

duaneb wrote: post #92
efdee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I'd like to shake his [sic] hand, buy him [sic] a beer, thank him [sic] personally", "but I believe Manning's sentence [of 35 years in prison] is reasonable". My jaw dropped to the floor. Assuming that you want to thank her for doing that thing that landed her in prison, there is nothing you can say that can reconcile those two statements for me.

Are they contradictory? There are plenty of criminals I like personally who deserve to serve time for breaking the law. EDIT: I wouldn't conflate ignorance of her gender and disrespect, it's not anything I've ever heard.

You miss the point. Pfc. Manning now identifies as Chelsea Manning. She is transgendered, and since her military career is toast she has come out of the closet on the subject.

I'm going to be generous and assume that duaneb poster was not closely following the story and is unaware of the above.

Transpersons are always the subject of massive flamewars online, so some folks get really strong kneejerk reactions to misgendering.

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#98

Post by Gracana »

Pxtl wrote: post #97
duaneb wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they contradictory? There are plenty of criminals I like personally who deserve to serve time for breaking the law. EDIT: I wouldn't conflate ignorance of her gender and disrespect, it's not anything I've ever heard.

You miss the point. Pfc. Manning now identifies as Chelsea Manning. She is transgendered, and since her military career is toast she has come out of the closet on the subject. I'm going to be generous and assume that duaneb poster was not closely following the story and is unaware of the above. Transpersons are always the subject of massive flamewars online, so some folks get really strong kneejerk reactions to misge…

I think efbee was responding to "I think what they did was right but also they deserve a 35 year sentence" as the two irreconcilable statements. Misgendering is an important point as well, but it's not what makes the statements contradictory.

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#99

Post by krzyk »

sergiotapia wrote: post #44
praptak wrote: post #13

While I'm fond of any form of flipping the NSA-backing US administration the bird, the Nobel Peace prize has not enough reputation to matter in this context. Al Gore got it for raising awareness of climate change. Obama got that for not being Bush. Even if Snowden gets it, it doesn't really matter.

In all honesty, Obama got it for being the first black president - it was a HUGE deal, remember that.

I assume that there are a lot of black presidents e.g. in Africa, I don't think a lot of them got that award.

Re: Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel peace prize

#100

Post by valarauca1 »

nivla wrote: post #96
Lazare wrote: post #17

Some may find the list of people who can nominate someone for the Nobel peace prize interesting. From their website: Members of national assemblies and governments of states; Members of international courts; University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes; Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize;…

> I believe Bush was nominated repeatedly. Ha even bizzaring, Adolf Hitler was once nominated. [1] [1] http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/facts/peace/

Hitler was TIME magazine man of year, and for a decent while in America Fascism was mildly popular (circa 1930's). Its strange looking back on a that time (Post Holocaust and WW2). American Newspapers applauded the works of fascists claiming, "They got the trains to run on time."
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