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We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

startupsanonymous.com

161–170 of 205 posts

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#161
Been there too. Here is the lesson to learn: If you got funded and have to pay invoices, employees (including yourself), never hope for more investment. Shrink and - if necessary - finally close your business before (!!!!) you run out of money. This is true for startups, businesses, household budget, pocket money, girlfriends (hrmmm), etc.

Startup is a high risk, the statistical odds are against you. Investors know that. If they see you fail, they will not tell you, they will simply stop to invest (and may be think, you will go on to save their a...). Hope that you may find new investment means, you did not start looking early enough to know the odds.

I (we) were at the same position in 2001 when the internet bubble burst. I am happy to report, that our business needed heavy investment (like yours did) and it became clear to us, that there will be no more investment for internet business in the foreseeable future. So we did shut down with money on the bank, paid our debts, bought out our gadgets from the company and divided the money that we paid for the gadgets among the shareholders (us :o). Both of us founders saw the startup as a business not as our baby. So we were able to look at it from a kind of outside perspective. This was not the reason why it failed, though, but it lifted us at eye level with the investors.

The way we handled it allowed us to book it as a very interesting experience. We were immediately able to look forward.

But, here is the positive side: You got investments (a lot even), you survived for 2 years, which is great. Now get together with your co-founders in a nice place, drink a bottle or two of good wine and analyze your mistakes.

Sorry to say this now that it is late for you. But next time ...

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#162
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to Thomas being right about employee wages being able to "pierce the veil" in many states, they're the people most at risk in this situation, so you owe it to them to make sure they're taken care of. It's the one circumstance where I would backstop a company problem with personal funds. (If your company was also behind on e.g. rent or hosting, on the other hand, that risk was priced into contractual terms…

I'm surprised that both you and tptacek seem to think it's much less of a deal to pay back vendors. Say the vendor is a startup or otherwise small company who's survival is hinged on getting paid what you owe. It's okay to stiff them, because we can get away with it legally? I think it's downright dishonorable to leave vendors hanging like that. Terminate your venture in time, before you can't afford to pay what you…

I'm in favor of paying one's debts, have a credit record which would do a Lannister proud, and would not incur any obligation which I did not have the good faith intention to repay as agreed. It's just that I feel an extra special obligation to employees, on account of their unique relationship to their employer, their (presumed) degree of dependence on that relationship, and a heritage as both a Catholic and a Japanese salaryman which suggests that not paying an employee their due wages is a crime which cries out to heaven for vengeance. (For those folks in the peanut gallery who aren't Catholic or Japanese salarymen: that's a thing for both, and it is a thing called exactly that by Catholics. I'm aware many HNers don't necessarily believe in it, but that doesn't make me believe in it less.)

Vendors do not enjoy this status, although I'd make all reasonable efforts to have a business which I control pay them as agreed. Reasonable efforts includes things like cash flow juggling, taking out debts in the name of the business, or reducing the size of my distributions. They do not include my family experiencing hardship on your business' account.

Vendors are not assumed to be as vulnerable as employees. They typically have far less concentration of income and far higher savvy with regards to the necessity of, e.g., keeping a cushion against the risk of receivables going sour.

I run a small company. I work with lots of other ones. Of the entire set of them, nobody is one invoice from death. If we were, we'd be dead, because we're well aware that individual invoices go missing all the damn time. That's baked into running a business with businesses as clients.

That's also part of the reason why, when I do business with companies as a vendor and not as an employee, I charge a significant premium to what I'd earn as an employee. The possibility of your business going belly up prior to paying my invoice exists. I already priced it into my weekly rate (or your monthly rate for services or whatever). If one of my clients was unable to pay due to their business ceasing to be a going concern, as a responsible businessman, when apprised of that I'd say "Wow, sorry. OK." and write off the debt. It happens. My accountant could probably tell you how much it cost us last year.

If the business owner said "I'd really feel better paying you out of my own pocket for this." I'd literally refuse their money. It's not their family's responsibility to backstop my business' cash flow management. That's my job, and part of the reason why I "earn the big bucks", for values of big which are pretty modest.

(Prudentially speaking I'd probably treat a solo freelancer on a long term contract as an employee for the purpose of "Should I reimburse this guy out of my own pocket?", but as a former consultant, I'd advise any of my freelancing friends to structure their affairs such that they don't depend on payment of every invoice.)

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#163
post #91

> I can’t imagine working for somebody else. I wish my wife understood that. Seriously?

Seriously. I'm 32, and never had a "boss" per-se. I've had consulting clients, and I've been at a company before, but always on my own terms. I recently started work with a part-time client in a more traditional arrangement and it's quite...trying. I had thought it'd be the opposite: someone else is running things, you just show up and get things done. If they make poor decisions, whatever, it's their money and time.…

It's the same with me. I can usually do it for about 3-4 months...and then the mis-management, ridiculous decisions, and the blame game (IE: I get blamed for a poor planning decision) gets to me and I want leave.

Now, I only work part-time for someone while my company is growing. It makes enough now to pay me and the other 2 founders a comfortable salary..but I can juggle both until my company gets too busy.

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#164
post #99
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to Thomas being right about employee wages being able to "pierce the veil" in many states, they're the people most at risk in this situation, so you owe it to them to make sure they're taken care of. It's the one circumstance where I would backstop a company problem with personal funds. (If your company was also behind on e.g. rent or hosting, on the other hand, that risk was priced into contractual terms…

The dumbest thing I've ever done in my career was to start a "founders don't take salary" company after earning a windfall from the sale of the last company I'd been at. Most companies fail. That company was no exception. The personal cost was spectacular. Most HN'ers seem to be in their mid-20s. Something you'll learn when you cross 30 is that time is more valuable than money. You'll never get the years you spend ch…

100% true that you never get those years back. You owe it to yourself to see something out of them.

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#166

Been there too. Here is the lesson to learn: If you got funded and have to pay invoices, employees (including yourself), never hope for more investment. Shrink and - if necessary - finally close your business before (!!!!) you run out of money. This is true for startups, businesses, household budget, pocket money, girlfriends (hrmmm), etc. Startup is a high risk, the statistical odds are against you. Investors know t…

Here is another thread about failure: Post mortem and lessons learned: This is the right attitude IMHO.

http://elnorr.com/2014/01/27/post-mortem-thanks-lessons-lear...

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#167
post #91

> I can’t imagine working for somebody else. I wish my wife understood that. Seriously?

Seriously. I'm 32, and never had a "boss" per-se. I've had consulting clients, and I've been at a company before, but always on my own terms. I recently started work with a part-time client in a more traditional arrangement and it's quite...trying. I had thought it'd be the opposite: someone else is running things, you just show up and get things done. If they make poor decisions, whatever, it's their money and time.…

It seems like you are the one who has the higher work discipline already, and that many people who find it trying to become a freelancer or entrepreneur should have been subjected to such an experience as a teen.

Being self-organized, selling solutions instead or just fulfilling a specific role (even if done excellent) is awesome!

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#168
post #91

> I can’t imagine working for somebody else. I wish my wife understood that. Seriously?

Seriously. I'm 32, and never had a "boss" per-se. I've had consulting clients, and I've been at a company before, but always on my own terms. I recently started work with a part-time client in a more traditional arrangement and it's quite...trying. I had thought it'd be the opposite: someone else is running things, you just show up and get things done. If they make poor decisions, whatever, it's their money and time.…

I am not yet 32 and I have worked for companies as an employee. Also, when I was utterly broke I did freelance work on the side and different languages and skills. It helped me get another job in fact!

I think the important thing for me now is that at the end of the day I can go home and not really have to worry or think about work until tomorrow. If money was the most important thing in life (or I was deeply in debt again), I would be working all evening as well, but money isn't the most important thing. Time is. Time to read, time to play with my cats, time to reflect.

My know a few who work for themselves and they seem constantly restless and with worry about how to make ends meet when not enough work is coming in. The idea of working for yourself seems romantic and "free" but it can be quite stressful, particularly with a family and children.

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#169

It's interesting, currently my business (bootstrapped and small) is doing just fine. Profitable, making more than I used to working for someone else, and I'm STILL scared shitless most of the time. The wife and I want to build a house and have kids and that sort of thing, and it all scares me. The really interesting thing though is that in general working for yourself is not much if any more risky than working for so…

No point working all the time to accumulate all you can only to die early from a heart attack.

Working for someone else means you can go home and not think about work until tomorrow. And you can read a book and develop hobbies, learn to play an instrument, tend a garden and look after a pet.

I do not envy you. I have had to work very hard in the evenings to get out of sticky situations, and despite the romantic view of working for yourself, I like to go home and forget the day.

Take some time off.

Re: We're Shutting Down and I'm Scared

#170
post #74

I'm a CTO and a serial entrepreneur, and i'm into this business since i was a kid. 6 years ago after a very intense splash in a huge famous company in US, I've decided to take a break, and fly to the Caribbean to open a sushi restaurant. My girlfriend is a successful F&B manager so i took all the suggestions I can handled from her, and opened it. After 12 months, was a complete failure. The first of my life. I was re…

Sounds like you went to some exotic places and tried some interesting things though. Likely a worthwhile experience!

I would like to visit the Caribbean. Even America would be good! Must save up...

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