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Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

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Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#21

Post by rayiner »

zackmorris wrote: post #12

The next-to-last sentence caught my eye: "The automaker recently announced that import tariffs and transportation costs will push the price of its Model S in China to $121,000, or roughly 50 percent more than the plug-in sedan costs in the U.S." We'll never hear it mentioned in American news, but we had import tariffs up until the 80s when we adopted supply-side economics as our ideology. We wonder why our manufactur…

I believe in free trade in principle, but I'm unwilling to sacrifice environmental and labor protection on the alter of neoclassical economics. Our trade policy should have strong barriers to entry. If you adopt our model: liberal democracy, environmental and labor protection antitrust and corruption enforcement, then we can have free trade. Otherwise, you don't get to participate.

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#22

Post by rayiner »

paganel wrote: post #19
zackmorris wrote: post #12

The next-to-last sentence caught my eye: "The automaker recently announced that import tariffs and transportation costs will push the price of its Model S in China to $121,000, or roughly 50 percent more than the plug-in sedan costs in the U.S." We'll never hear it mentioned in American news, but we had import tariffs up until the 80s when we adopted supply-side economics as our ideology. We wonder why our manufactur…

I'm not an American and I'm what most people would call a "libertarian", but if you really do believe in "protection tariffs" then ask yourself if you're prepared to pay ~$1,800 for a PS4, for example. ( http://www.destructoid.com/playstation-4-will-cost-1-850-in-... )

If it would bring jobs back to the Delaware valley, then in a heartbeat.

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#23

Post by fiatmoney »

paganel wrote: post #19
zackmorris wrote: post #12

The next-to-last sentence caught my eye: "The automaker recently announced that import tariffs and transportation costs will push the price of its Model S in China to $121,000, or roughly 50 percent more than the plug-in sedan costs in the U.S." We'll never hear it mentioned in American news, but we had import tariffs up until the 80s when we adopted supply-side economics as our ideology. We wonder why our manufactur…

I'm not an American and I'm what most people would call a "libertarian", but if you really do believe in "protection tariffs" then ask yourself if you're prepared to pay ~$1,800 for a PS4, for example. ( http://www.destructoid.com/playstation-4-will-cost-1-850-in-... )

The entire point is that the high cost makes domestic production more attractive, because you can offer a lower price than the foreign-produced, tariffed variety.

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#25

Post by ihsw »

fiatmoney wrote: post #23
paganel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an American and I'm what most people would call a "libertarian", but if you really do believe in "protection tariffs" then ask yourself if you're prepared to pay ~$1,800 for a PS4, for example. ( http://www.destructoid.com/playstation-4-will-cost-1-850-in-... )

The entire point is that the high cost makes domestic production more attractive, because you can offer a lower price than the foreign-produced, tariffed variety.

And when domestic production just doesn't happen, what then? Will you allow your population to languish in poverty while prices are high due to an artificial floor?

PS4s are a luxury, but when we apply the same logic to necessities then that argument falls on its face fairly quickly.

Tariffs are also susceptible to political wrangling, where taxes are levied selectively.

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#26

Post by dandelany »

ihsw wrote: post #25
fiatmoney wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point is that the high cost makes domestic production more attractive, because you can offer a lower price than the foreign-produced, tariffed variety.

And when domestic production just doesn't happen, what then? Will you allow your population to languish in poverty while prices are high due to an artificial floor? PS4s are a luxury, but when we apply the same logic to necessities then that argument falls on its face fairly quickly. Tariffs are also susceptible to political wrangling, where taxes are levied selectively.

We have the resources and labor force for domestic production, and there is plenty of money to be made. Nature abhors a vacuum. It would happen.

> PS4s are a luxury, but when we apply the same logic to necessities then that argument falls on its face fairly quickly.

So let's only apply it to non-necessities. We already have higher taxes on some luxuries, what would happen if we implemented them as import tariffs rather than sales tax?

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#27

Post by elzed »

sliverstorm wrote: post #18
coldtea wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because Apple lost their trade secrets by having their factories in China, right?

Since when has Apple relied on trade secrets? They are all about product, branding, image, and experience.

and lawsuits, lots of lawsuits.

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#29

Post by felipe »

paganel wrote: post #19
zackmorris wrote: post #12

The next-to-last sentence caught my eye: "The automaker recently announced that import tariffs and transportation costs will push the price of its Model S in China to $121,000, or roughly 50 percent more than the plug-in sedan costs in the U.S." We'll never hear it mentioned in American news, but we had import tariffs up until the 80s when we adopted supply-side economics as our ideology. We wonder why our manufactur…

I'm not an American and I'm what most people would call a "libertarian", but if you really do believe in "protection tariffs" then ask yourself if you're prepared to pay ~$1,800 for a PS4, for example. ( http://www.destructoid.com/playstation-4-will-cost-1-850-in-... )

Brazilian here: A local tax expert pointed out that Sony is adding a huge profit margin on top of the taxes [1]. Sony has disclosed the tax figures to the media but not their profit margin, and trying to blame it only on taxes because they know the Brazilian consumer will believe.

Some suspect that Sony is importing at an even higher price than the retail US price. No one knows for sure, but clever US sellers were buying PS4 at full retail price, shipping to Brazil, paying all taxes, and still they were able to sell cheaper than the retail price of the Brazilian PS4.

If Sony produced PS4 in Brazil they would pay 6% taxes instead of the 40% protection tariff. Microsoft (actually Foxconn) is doing exactly that in Brazil and that's why the XBox One is actually cheaper than a PS4.

Sony simply did not want to incur the labor costs and risks associated with investing in the local tech industry. Nothing wrong with that (it's their decision), but they are not being truthful to the local consumer.

[1] (in portuguese) http://info.abril.com.br/games/noticias/2013/10/sony-divulga...

Re: Musk: Tesla will have a factory in China

#30

Post by yetanotherphd »

zackmorris wrote: post #12

The next-to-last sentence caught my eye: "The automaker recently announced that import tariffs and transportation costs will push the price of its Model S in China to $121,000, or roughly 50 percent more than the plug-in sedan costs in the U.S." We'll never hear it mentioned in American news, but we had import tariffs up until the 80s when we adopted supply-side economics as our ideology. We wonder why our manufactur…

There was honest debate, your side just happened to lose.

Supply-side economics is a misnomer. Classical economics would be a much more accurate term. It is true that American workers cannot compete with lower costs overseas (though I think the lower costs have more to do with the fact that the US has more alternative means of employment and therefore higher wages). However this is no issue. As a friend of mine always likes to say, trade is like technology: you can think of other countries like a machine where you put in one kind of good (exports) and get back another (imports). So why would you want to impose a special tax on this machine? Economic theory suggests that to do so would be inefficient.

The only valid reason for protectionism is strategic: e.g. having the ability to make things for yourself in case other countries cut off supply. The US is by far the world leader in military technology so I don't think this is an issue.

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