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Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

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Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#71

Post by jrockway »

maxjus wrote: post #59
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse: laptop keyboards are usually connected to a special embedded firmware (IIRC on my Clevo laptop it's called EC, short for embedded controller), which handles the FN+x key combos like LCD brightness, volume control, keyboard backlight (Lenovo!), WiFi/BT/cellphone-data connectivity, webcam enabling (!) and other detailed functions. Now, if this EC chip is vulnerable, a malicious keyboard can have direct DMA acces…

>direct DMA access Direct direct memory access access?

Financed with a withdrawal from the ATM machine, of course.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#72

Post by polack »

kriro wrote: post #63

I hope this was not posted before the keyboard arrived. Should be easy enough to have it taken apart by an expert and see if anything is fishy (and to check if tracking numbers match). If it was posted before...why would you do that.

Looks like she posted it before... Either way I would cut her access to the Tor project.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#73

Post by mschuster91 »

csmithuk wrote: post #68
mschuster91 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse: laptop keyboards are usually connected to a special embedded firmware (IIRC on my Clevo laptop it's called EC, short for embedded controller), which handles the FN+x key combos like LCD brightness, volume control, keyboard backlight (Lenovo!), WiFi/BT/cellphone-data connectivity, webcam enabling (!) and other detailed functions. Now, if this EC chip is vulnerable, a malicious keyboard can have direct DMA acces…

As per my other post, the keyboard is most likely a PS2 keyboard interface (physical or emulated) connected to a simple PS2/LPC(ISA) bus interface inside the EC. It will literally deliver an IRQ to that bus (IRQ 1) at which point the EC has to suck down a character from the keyboard buffer and do something with it. It's not clever, can't use DMA and generally is the dumbest thing in the entire machine. If they someho…

Thanks for the clarification!

But one question remains: how does the EC control stuff like the bluetooth radio and webcams? They're USB devices to the OS, so in theory there should be a USB hub inside the EC?

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#74

Post by blowski »

I'm inclined to believe that this is a mistake - "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and all that.

...However, since hypothetically this could happen, how could it be prevented? Would there be some unbreakable way for a manufacturer to tell you if the keyboard had been tampered with?

I was thinking of those silver foils that are now put over a lot of food items so that crazies can't put stuff in them in the supermarket. I appreciate wrapping it in plastic probably wouldn't be enough to defeat the security services, but you get the idea.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#75

Post by [deleted] »

rwg wrote: post #9

HEY, KIDS! Do YOU know what time it is?! [wild audience applause] THAT'S RIGHT, it's time for WHICH IS MORE LIKELY? ! [intro music] Today on Which is More Likely? , we're looking at a replacement Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard that was shipped to Alexandria, Virginia, instead of Seattle, Washington. What a blunder! [slide whistle sound effect] Now put your thinking caps on and ponder, WHICH IS MORE LIKELY? ! • The largest…

[deleted]

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#76

Post by kriro »

busterarm wrote: post #18
rwg wrote: post #9

HEY, KIDS! Do YOU know what time it is?! [wild audience applause] THAT'S RIGHT, it's time for WHICH IS MORE LIKELY? ! [intro music] Today on Which is More Likely? , we're looking at a replacement Lenovo Thinkpad keyboard that was shipped to Alexandria, Virginia, instead of Seattle, Washington. What a blunder! [slide whistle sound effect] Now put your thinking caps on and ponder, WHICH IS MORE LIKELY? ! • The largest…

Maybe this is Amazon/USPS's shipping version of the warrant canary? If Apple does it... Imagine that we're not in the US for a second and that this were a journalist? Would your opinion of what happened change? It would have to be a mis-delivery at least instead of a "wrong tracking number". How likely is it that Amazon would ship something from a CA warehouse and it take more than 2 days to get to Seattle? Also keep…

Yep my first thought as well.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#77

Post by busterarm »

tptacek wrote: post #65
dchichkov wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think NSA cares much about hiding their activities from you? I can tell you a story. Some years ago, back in Russia, as a [naive] kid, I've developed a surveillance system for Telrad telecom exchange [ultimately for FSB]. Do you think anyone cared to do that project in secrecy? I can give you the answer. Nope. As far as I understand NSA can legally intercept packages and can legally install undetectable su…

Gee, I don't know what gave me the impression that NSA was secretive.

It's going after low-hanging fruit to say this and while the link I'm providing is not the NSA, our government agencies seem to have a real hard time keeping secrets lately.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131220/10200525651/fbi-ag...

Apparently keeping secrets is hard. Human error and all.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#78

Post by ewoodrich »

dchichkov wrote: post #44
tptacek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. Richard's point doesn't depend on an Amazon bug that transposes tracking codes. But your point does depend on the NSA redirecting packages to Alexandria in such a way that anyone who checked their order status would notice.

Why do you think NSA cares much about hiding their activities from you? I can tell you a story. Some years ago, back in Russia, as a [naive] kid, I've developed a surveillance system for Telrad telecom exchange [ultimately for FSB]. Do you think anyone cared to do that project in secrecy? I can give you the answer. Nope. As far as I understand NSA can legally intercept packages and can legally install undetectable su…

It would be pretty stupid for a spy agency to give a target clear warning that their electronics were tampered with.

Isn't the whole point of this program to capture information that the target wouldn't otherwise broadcast publicly?

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#80

Post by EricBurnett »

All this speculation about what any TLA's may or may not have done seems fruitless to me. If the keyboard seems legitimately suspect, send it to someone to do a teardown or plug it in and capture communications, and find out. That way we'll learn something concrete, and not reinforce this 'NSA of doooooom' crowd mentality.
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