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Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

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Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#61
post #29
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mishaps happen. Intelligence agencies in particular have a long history of mishaps (and incompetence), probably due to the lack of oversight …

Of course, and I'm not saying they don't. I'm just saying, which is more likely? I'd wager the USPS screws up a lot more often that the NSA.

The tinfoil-hat scenario here is that the USPS is doing the bidding of the NSA. So it's a USPS screwup either way.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#62
post #6
post #3

I'm a bit confused here. On the bottom right, it says that the package contained a replacement keyboard, and not an actual laptop.

But when that keyboard gets plugged into the motherboard of the laptop, it'll have an opportunity to install malware in the form of device drivers.

Actually no. The keyboard is still an old fashioned PS2 device on the majority of laptops. It connects to the LPC bus (low pin count - similar to ISA) via a PS2/ISA bridge in the embedded controller. It's just like in an oooooold AT PC. There is no possibility for it to deliver anything but keystrokes. It doesn't go anywhere near the USB stack and can't inject devices or play with the HID drivers.

Connection-wise it looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/ayFybSd.png

Keystrokes can be dangerous on their own but engineering a solution to this that assumes the correct state of the machine and can operate software is unlikely simply due to the margin of error.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, one part of what they do is in NJ/CA. Alexandria is where they're based. I'm not leaping to any conclusion; it just seems remotely possible and they're based there. You're the one saying there's nothing interesting in Alexandria. Given what the company researches, their history and mission, it seems like exactly the sort of place where this wild theory suggested by the OP could be a reality.

The headquarters of a company like this isn't interesting. Headquarters are administrative centers. It's not where you send a laptop to have a bug installed.

A bug is only one of many possibilities for what they could want with that keyboard.

The people in that building are highly trusted whereas the NSA has good reason not to trust the brilliant geeks working for their contractors.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#65
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. Richard's point doesn't depend on an Amazon bug that transposes tracking codes. But your point does depend on the NSA redirecting packages to Alexandria in such a way that anyone who checked their order status would notice.

Why do you think NSA cares much about hiding their activities from you? I can tell you a story. Some years ago, back in Russia, as a [naive] kid, I've developed a surveillance system for Telrad telecom exchange [ultimately for FSB]. Do you think anyone cared to do that project in secrecy? I can give you the answer. Nope. As far as I understand NSA can legally intercept packages and can legally install undetectable su…

Gee, I don't know what gave me the impression that NSA was secretive.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#66
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The headquarters of a company like this isn't interesting. Headquarters are administrative centers. It's not where you send a laptop to have a bug installed.

A bug is only one of many possibilities for what they could want with that keyboard. The people in that building are highly trusted whereas the NSA has good reason not to trust the brilliant geeks working for their contractors.

Huh? Those people are contractors.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#67
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when that keyboard gets plugged into the motherboard of the laptop, it'll have an opportunity to install malware in the form of device drivers.

Worse: laptop keyboards are usually connected to a special embedded firmware (IIRC on my Clevo laptop it's called EC, short for embedded controller), which handles the FN+x key combos like LCD brightness, volume control, keyboard backlight (Lenovo!), WiFi/BT/cellphone-data connectivity, webcam enabling (!) and other detailed functions. Now, if this EC chip is vulnerable, a malicious keyboard can have direct DMA acces…

Laptop keyboards are directly connected to embedded controller primarily because they are completely passive switch matrices (and EC includes - often directly in hardware - logic for scanning keyboard matrix), so there is nothing meaningful to exploit on the EC side.

Also connecting EC directly to some PCI bus does not make much sense from both system design and cost perspectives. Usual place to connect EC to is LPC, which is explicitly designed for such devices (things on motherboard like serial/parallel/game ports, TPM, FDC, keyboard controller/EC, BIOS flash and various ). Random review of datasheets found by google seems to indicate that chips that are only embedded controllers and do not contain additional ISA based peripherals (like ISA DMA controller itself) tend to not even implement the pin required for LPC DMA/bus master transactions (as it is not required for anything in normal operation).

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#68
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But when that keyboard gets plugged into the motherboard of the laptop, it'll have an opportunity to install malware in the form of device drivers.

Worse: laptop keyboards are usually connected to a special embedded firmware (IIRC on my Clevo laptop it's called EC, short for embedded controller), which handles the FN+x key combos like LCD brightness, volume control, keyboard backlight (Lenovo!), WiFi/BT/cellphone-data connectivity, webcam enabling (!) and other detailed functions. Now, if this EC chip is vulnerable, a malicious keyboard can have direct DMA acces…

As per my other post, the keyboard is most likely a PS2 keyboard interface (physical or emulated) connected to a simple PS2/LPC(ISA) bus interface inside the EC. It will literally deliver an IRQ to that bus (IRQ 1) at which point the EC has to suck down a character from the keyboard buffer and do something with it.

It's not clever, can't use DMA and generally is the dumbest thing in the entire machine.

If they somehow manage to work around it I'd eat a box of lightbulbs. It's hard enough to coerce it to work to start with.

Source: I used to design embedded PC kit from the board level.

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#69
Bugs in software are so uncommon these days that I always assume any malfunctions are due to government interference. A human making a mistake while programming or using a computer? Not bloody likely. The government trying to infect my laptop with malware contained in a replacement keyboard? That's the only possible explanation!

Re: Did this Tor developer become a victim of NSA's laptop interception program?

#70
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bug is only one of many possibilities for what they could want with that keyboard. The people in that building are highly trusted whereas the NSA has good reason not to trust the brilliant geeks working for their contractors.

Huh? Those people are contractors.

I'll have to be explicit since this seems hard to understand:

You're the NSA. Who do you trust more: A) (Perhaps the) CTO of a defense contractor that only works for you that you've had a 20 year working relationship with? B) The bright eyed young scientists working for that contractor in a building 3000 miles away?

Or put another way, despite the Snowden leak, I'll bet you any amount of money that the NSA is still in "really fucking tight" with Booz Allen Hamilton.

Or: duh OPSEC.

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