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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#281

Post by scribu »

snitko wrote: post #257
ajuc wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My law firm (also a protection service) has simple rules - in all conflicts with clients of other law firms our clients are right by default. We have the best security enforcers, so we can deliver on that rule, too. We may be expansive, but having your home burned cause you signed with inferior security provider is far more expansive, right? How exactly this situation differs from payign mafia for protection? At leas…

If that's the rule of your firm then it is going to go out of business pretty fast. Why? Because if you insist that your clients are always right then you will inevitably get into violent conflicts with other firms. Violence is expensive and since you can't really print money and raise taxes like governments do, you only have this limited amount of money from your customers. As a businessmen, you want to make money,…

So if other firms can decide to resolve conflicts among themselves peacefully, then they can also decide to band together into a federation that serves their interests. Monopolies form because they're efficient.

If you say that regular people will prevent that, then you're just back to having violent revolutions, except against monopolies, instead of governments.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#282

Post by Someone »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #233
Someone wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha! That bombs thing does make sense. It wouldn't be that hard to enter the sewers outside that 'government sector', and place a bomb under a manhole cover welded shut, but I guess would-be terrorists would not want to carry a few hundred pounds or so of explosives through the sewers.

Assuming the sewers are even navigable for a human.

I know little about sewer systems, but if there is a manhole cover, isn't that likely?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#283

Post by snitko »

scribu wrote: post #281
snitko wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the rule of your firm then it is going to go out of business pretty fast. Why? Because if you insist that your clients are always right then you will inevitably get into violent conflicts with other firms. Violence is expensive and since you can't really print money and raise taxes like governments do, you only have this limited amount of money from your customers. As a businessmen, you want to make money,…

So if other firms can decide to resolve conflicts among themselves peacefully, then they can also decide to band together into a federation that serves their interests. Monopolies form because they're efficient. If you say that regular people will prevent that, then you're just back to having violent revolutions, except against monopolies, instead of governments.

Monopolies and cartels don't exist for long unless governments subsidize them or otherwise help by regulating the industry (and not allowing new players to disrupt the market). You will hardly find an example of a monopoly which was not supported by the government in one form or another.

In the free market cartels break down very fast, because one member eventually decides to defect or because another powerful player comes to the market and realizes he can make a lot of money by providing customers with a better and cheaper service than the cartel members.

Generally, if most people agree they don't want rulers, there will be no rulers. The only reason why governments keep their power is because the managed to convince people that the alternative is a complete chaos and destruction, while in reality it is only governments who create chaos and destruction on an unimaginable scale. Even the most oppressive government can't go for a long time using just force, it has to lie and convince people. If it can't, it is brought down.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#284

Post by deletes »

vdaniuk wrote: post #266
deletes wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think mostly because the protest are very localized. Apart from that street, the city( and country ) is operating as usual. Shops and businesses are operating and civilians are going to work. The protest are mostly after work activity. That is why the largest fights take place in the evening and night.

^^ This comment is misinformation. More than 10 regional administrations are currently under control of protestors and there are mass protests in most regional centers in Ukraine. This is a map of protests. http://inspired.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/oda-map-26... Legend: Red means regional administration buildings are under control of protestors. Pinkish are regions where protestors block the administration bu…

^^ This comment is misinformation. You didn't post any proof, so you see, anyone can do that.

According to you, half of the country is involved in the protest and not going to work( >20 million !!), I highly doubt that the whole country is at halt. I have only seen and read about protest in the very center of Kiev. Around of the Independence Square, Hrushevsky Street and its neighboring streets. All I stated was posted in the foreign media and blogs( truthful or not ), unfortunately I don't have the time to backtrack and search to provide the necessary links.

I would love to hear some reliable information to confirm any statements.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#285

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

us0r wrote: post #250
jccooper wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals." What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

This is probably the best write up on it: http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014...

That entirely fails to even mention the ethnic angle, which is probably the main thing never-mind the current political details. The western part of the country speaks Ukranian, not Russian, and was historically aligned with the Polish empire.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#286

Post by gritzko »

thesz wrote: post #278
gritzko wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell yes! Folks from Saint Petersburg shop in Finland. They even order parcels to Finnish addresses next to the border because Russian mail sucks badly. Once I was crossing from Finland to SPb and I was questioned by customs on whether I've bought my stuff in Finland. Apparently, everybody's doing that and they are trying to tax it. Goods are unreasonably expensive in Russia. I was living in Netherlands which is not…

The Russian mail "sucks" because there was a sudden horrifying jump in mail packages volume. Russian Postal Service wasn't prepared to that. It is doing progressively better as time goes. If you want to talk about cleptocracy, let's talk about US a little bit. Let's start from yellow light duration scandals (from the top of my head): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdD5fvYHtKQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_light_ca…

Russian mail struggles with that jump for 20 years at least. I am 34.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#287

Post by guard-of-terra »

wslh wrote: post #208
jccooper wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The courage these activists are showing is going to do a lot to help accomplish their political goals." What are their political goals? The author of this piece seems to say that there are none, other than being generally angry. Even if you know what you're fighting for, it's hard to accomplish; if you don't know what you want, it's rather unlikely you'll get it.

More information here http://mobile.news.com.au/world/what-you-need-to-know-about-...

They seem to state that the only reason why euroassociation was cancelled is pressure from Russia.

Just wanted to note that there is another reason: he was afraid of damaging economy, especially economy of ukrainian east, which depends on manufacturing which will be disrupted by european goods flowing in.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#288

Post by jedmeyers »

IgorPartola wrote: post #131
thesz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those commenters have very justified disdain. They want Ukraine to join European union. and the fate of Ukraine will be pretty grim in that case. My (not only mine's, actually) conclusion is based on experience of former Baltic USSR republics and former states from the Socialist block, including Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. Never mind that burning car tires means producing benzopirenes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo…

Oh man. I cannot see how what you are saying makes sense. First, joining the EU and trading with the EU are different things. We are talking about a very low level of commitment here for what originally started these riots. Please tell us how reducing corruption and creating a trade agreement with the EU a bad thing for Ukraine? Second, what does burning tires have to do with anything about this political situation?…

The are not just trolling for Russia. LJ is really popular online platform for Putin's prpaganda, and a lot of people are getting paid for pro-Putin politic comments. Usually after third page the amount of such comments falls down considerably, probably they are being paid for with a lower rate.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#289

Post by amurmann »

Regardless who is in the right here, I don't understand why all the protesters keep going to that square where all the cops are. One of those Molotov cocktails they keep throwing could probably be used more efficiently anywhere else in the city with so many cops in that one square. I am sure there must be plenty of worthwhile targets that pretty much have their pants down right now. Police stations, buildings associated with Yanukovich and his party... I am sure there is any number of places where a few guys with molotovs could be used better than at that battlefield of a square.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#290

Post by marcosdumay »

snitko wrote: post #279
marcosdumay wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's quite a jump from "people ... don't need anyone to rule them" into anarchy. Why do you think both concepts are equivalent?

Actually that's what I meant, indeed, so he was spot on. Anarchy means no rulers. It doesn't mean absence of law and order and violent gangs of rapists running on the streets with molotov cocktails and baseball bats. Law and order are provided not by a violent monopolist (government), but instead by the free market.

Yeah, ok, then you are jumping to the same conclusion, and my comment was completely orthogonal to the discussion.

Anyway, still offtopic, I'm quite eager for the reasons why you both discard democracy (no rulers, but government exist) without even a comment (am I missing something that obvious?).

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