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Revolution in Kiev

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Re: Revolution in Kiev

#51

Post by lostlogin »

desireco42 wrote: post #33
[deleted] wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

No, I am fairly certain that we see similar things (you can never mean exactly same) and we understand each other. These pictures represent violence and this is somehow reported as peaceful protest. I don't think people are 'sheep' but there is a lot of wishful thinking that we will accept this as reported and not try to reason ourselves.

Have you read the captions? All of them? There are images of elderly people facing off against the 'police' (heavily militarized is an understatement as far as I can tell). How do you suggest people get the political changes they want?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#52

Post by prostoalex »

altero wrote: post #37

I wonder if somebody actually read EU treaty (reason for all this protests). Signing it would pretty much kill industry and criple agriculture at Ukraine.

Can you point to specific paragraphs that would do such things?

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#53

Post by Intermernet »

desireco42 wrote: post #16
tsurantino wrote: post #6

One thing really stood out to me about this protest, and that is how isolated and targeted it is against government. The writer mentioned how no shopkeepers are affected, and that protesting is specifically barricaded around the government district. Irrespective of the violence and damage taking place, that there is no collateral means that we can't detract from the focus of the issue.

That is very hard to believe :) and naive assertion, all reports point out to very aggressive 'protesters' that attack security forces to provoke their reaction and that whole nature of protest is changing towards violence and aggression.

Do you also believe the news reports that come from such trusted media organizations as Fox, or KCNA?

All reports means very little when the only sources available are controlled by a party with a vested interest in the outcome.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#54

Post by prostoalex »

news_to_me wrote: post #29
nate_meurer wrote: post #8

The photography here is absolutely incredible. This situation is really frightening to me. I so hope that the Ukraine can get out from underneath her oppressors (yes I mean Yanukovitch and Putin) without descending any further into chaos.

I'm a bit uninformed; is there any recent precedent for a revolt like this succeeding? Honestly I'm a little skeptical that a revolution of this sort could ultimately defeat a vastly better-funded power without overwhelming popular support.

Ukraine in 2004 worked out, albeit short-term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#55

Post by altero »

arrrg wrote: post #46
mladenkovacevic wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protesters are manipulated into thinking that joining EU and getting rid of Yanukovich is somehow the first step to prosperity... And the blogosphere is manipulated into buying this as some kind of completely spontaneous grass roots movement. Sure people want change.. But this is bankrolled elsewhere.. I bet it wasn't that expensive either.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

> Joining the common European market

But this joining would be one direction, Ukraine would not be allowed to export into EU thanks to various regulations. Also Ukraine already has common market with Russia, and this would have to close.

This deal is actually really bad for Ukraine.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#56

Post by rosser »

csomar wrote: post #50
arrrg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Having a large common market you can buy from and sell to is pretty awesome, actually. Add the pretty great more human benefits (freedom of movement, freedom of labor) and it’s a pretty great perspective. As it stands, however, the Ukraine is probabl…

Joining the common European market would be a great step towards prosperity, sure, with mutual benefits for everyone, as well as increased security, stability and peace. Big claims need big justifications, I guess. The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

The EU experience wasn't all that good for Greece, for example.

Having to defang their military a bit to be considered for EU admission didn't exactly work out ideally for Turkey, either...

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#57

Post by bluekeybox »

higherpurpose wrote: post #27

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy You'd think oppressive leaders would learn that lesson by now. But no, it seems we're more likely doomed to repeat it in cycles, over and over again. I wonder what those politicians who come up with the idea of "hey, let's make protesting virtually impossible. That will all our problems!". They need to understan…

I don't mean to get personal, but your post is surprisingly content-free. Everyone in the pro-government party understands what this protest is about. Yanukovich may be portrayed as non-intellectual, but he has read his Machiavelli and knows how to maneuver. In addition, he has an equally ardent, albeit much less vociferous voter base as the opposition, plus a network of government-connected oligarchs who run the show from behind the scenes. In this case, the future of the country has a clear schism. You cannot simultaneously sign a pact with Russia while opening the door to European market. It's one or the other, black or white, as made clear by Mr. Putin.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#58

Post by [deleted] »

rosser wrote: post #4

I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c ) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding o…

[deleted]

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#59

Post by kybernetyk »

rosser wrote: post #4

I feel like this kind of thing (the various Arab Spring uprisings, the Ukrainian revolution, &c ) is very well served by the cacophony of amateur/citizen journalism that flows out of an individual event. Sure, at the time, it's incredibly noisy, because there's so much primary source material being created, with such incredible depth and nuance. Once people start to be able to assemble a comprehensive understanding o…

> amateur/citizen "journalism"

No need to put journalism into quotes because it is real journalism what those people are doing.

Re: Revolution in Kiev

#60

Post by oneofthose »

sillysaurus2 wrote: post #7

A protester in Kiev did an IAmA on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w17qn/iama_protestor_... According to him, "Russia is trying to keep all the former Soviet Union satellite countries under control, and that is the root cause of the rioting."

A book that some believe influences Russia's strategy is "Osnovy geopolitiki: Geopoliticheskoe budushchee Rossii" (Foundations of Geopolitics: The Geo-political Future of Russia) by Alexander Dugin. It describes the path to an Eurasian Empire that says about Ukraine "with the exception of its three westernmost regions—Volhynia, Galicia, and Transcarpathia—Ukraine, like Belarus, constitutes an integral part of Russia-Eurasia". [1]

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics [1] http://www.hoover.org/publications/hoover-digest/article/807...

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