How Long Have I Got Left? • Hacker News Board

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#141

Post by sdegutis » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

belluchan wrote: post #139

sdegutis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found that you can reply directly by clicking the [link] link, which gives you a reply box. "The evidence that explain the things that I believe in, like the existence of this computer in front of me, don't require any faith at all." Not so. You have faith in what your parents told you about the circumstances of your birth. You have no memory of the first year of your life, so it could very well have been made u…

In this case that's not me using faith, that's using a heuristic. A heuristic is a decent substitute for empirical research, but it is not foolproof. We use heuristics to save time. If we had to do empirical research for everything in our lives we would never have time to do anything. A heuristic is a way to ascertain information quickly. In the case of my birth, there's all kind of evidence to back up my parent's st…

Following your formula and your DNA example, "I would not believe in God if the New Testament were not true."

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#142

Post by thomasz » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 5:43 PM UTC

vanderZwan wrote: post #116

thomasz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two to three extra hours is vastly exaggerated, and not that much time for someone who needs to know the chances of dying a horrible death. I might add that this is an objection based on economic argumentation, which, while not invalid, is not the one given by doctors. They argue like the author of the article did: That they know better than you how you will react to this kind of information, and that they can manage…

> I might add that this is an objection based on economic argumentation, which, while not invalid, is not the one given by doctors If you think doctors don't have time for you for economic reasons, and not the fact that there are other patients out there, you really have no idea what doctors do all day. > They argue like the author of the article did: That they know better than you how you will react to this kind of…

> If you think doctors don't have time for you for economic reasons, and not the fact that there are other patients out there, you really have no idea what doctors do all day.

You are the one who explains that behavior with economic constraints - seemingly without even realizing it. I have written twice that I don't think it comes down to economic reasons.

> They have far more experience with people receiving this information than the person receiving it.

I think that's a popular misconception. They are highly specialized experts for certain kinds of cancer, not priests, social workers or psychologists. You do not have deep conversations with them about how you are coping with the disease and the possibility of dying. You discuss blood counts, treatment plans, possibly options for being recruited into a study population. Or more concisely: They maintain a professional relationship while keeping a healthy emotional distance from their patients.

And nobody should blame them for that. After all, you go to the doctor to get treatment for your cancer, not a shoulder to cry on.

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#143

Post by sdegutis » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 5:46 PM UTC

belluchan wrote: post #138

sdegutis wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a good short article on the Resurrection of Jesus[1]. [1]: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm

These are all witness accounts from superstitious people who died long ago. Nothing listed is verifiable. This is not good evidence. Witness accounts from dead people should not be enough to discount the mountains of empirical evidence that imply that resurrection after having been dead for three days is not possible.

I disagree. The following document explains my reasoning:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04503a.htm

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#144

Post by TeMPOraL » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 5:52 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #74

factorizer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious discussions aside, wtf do you mean with "getting off of this planet"? Whereto? There's nothing around for TRILLIONS of klicks! First fuck up the planet, then leave, does not appear to be a trait of highly developed civilisations. More one of perishing ones.

I don't think that's what he meant. This planet is great, we should definitely keep it and take care of it. But it is just one single planet, we should try and hedge against problems out of our control (such as big meteorites).

I vote for solving death first, or at least in parallel (we can do both at the same time); I think we could do it faster than setting up a sustainable colony on another world.

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#145

Post by belluchan » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 5:54 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #141

belluchan wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case that's not me using faith, that's using a heuristic. A heuristic is a decent substitute for empirical research, but it is not foolproof. We use heuristics to save time. If we had to do empirical research for everything in our lives we would never have time to do anything. A heuristic is a way to ascertain information quickly. In the case of my birth, there's all kind of evidence to back up my parent's st…

Following your formula and your DNA example, "I would not believe in God if the New Testament were not true."

That's not right.

Try to the phrase the X with very specific verifiable empirical evidence.

It's a bit ridiculous to make a claim of truth for an entire volume of information. Scientists, for example, don't do this. There are always going to be errors that creep into work. Einstein's has a paper called "Relativity: The Special and the General Theory." Scientists don't say "I would not believe in relativity if Einstein's paper were not true." They give specific evidence. For example, they would say they don't believe in relativity if light from stars didn't bend around the sun. Try something like that.

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#146

Post by belluchan » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 6:02 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #136

belluchan wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't reply to you directly. Why is your faith not blind or unreasoning? Can you give me just one specific example of empirical evidence for God's existence? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm guessing you're going to give me some unverifiable testimony from people who died long ago and expect that to have a person question heaps of contrary empirical evidence. I don't think that works. And yo…

> I'm guessing you're going to give me some unverifiable testimony from people who died long ago and expect that to have a person question heaps of contrary empirical evidence. Read the related chapter in The Handbook of Christian Apologetics[1] for reasons why the Gospel stories are reliable eyewitness accounts. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Christian-Apologetics-Peter-K...

When it comes to claims that attempt to discount an insurmountable mountain of physical evidence you yourself can verify, there is no such thing as reliable eyewitness accounts, especially not from people who died eons ago. It's obvious you are not applying sound reasoning. Would you say it's sound reasoning to convict a man cleared by DNA tests for murder when there are witness accounts from living people? Think about this maybe. You're applying a wholly uneven standard of importance to one kind of evidence because of faith. And you resort to faith because the evidence is not good enough. You resort to faith because you want to. Given all that we know about the universe, you are clearly making the wrong choice.

I may not convince you, but again, you are exactly what I thought you were, a person who relies on faith to believe in God. Faith is a bad way to come to believe in things. For example Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet, Mormons believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Both rely on faith, but clearly both can not be right. You would not use faith to answer questions in everyday life, because you would not do well.

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#147

Post by sdegutis » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

belluchan wrote: post #146

sdegutis wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm guessing you're going to give me some unverifiable testimony from people who died long ago and expect that to have a person question heaps of contrary empirical evidence. Read the related chapter in The Handbook of Christian Apologetics[1] for reasons why the Gospel stories are reliable eyewitness accounts. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Christian-Apologetics-Peter-K...

When it comes to claims that attempt to discount an insurmountable mountain of physical evidence you yourself can verify, there is no such thing as reliable eyewitness accounts, especially not from people who died eons ago. It's obvious you are not applying sound reasoning. Would you say it's sound reasoning to convict a man cleared by DNA tests for murder when there are witness accounts from living people? Think abo…

The book I mentioned refutes this argument you're making. Why don't you read it?

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#148

Post by nbouscal » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 6:04 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #123

belluchan wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what evidence did you eventually find to turn to God if it's not a feelings/faith based thing?

If it could be explained in a HN comment, I think there would be many more Christians in the world. That's why there are whole books written on the subject. The only one I still own is The Handbook of Christian Apologetics[1][2] so that's the only one I can recommend. But it does require some faith, just not blind or unreasoning faith, as most people seem to think. [1]: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Christian-Apolog…

There's no other kind of faith. Faith literally means "belief without evidence."

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#149

Post by rooster8 » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 6:10 PM UTC

aaronem wrote: post #107

sdegutis wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Christian in me wants to say "hey guys, I know what you mean, I've felt the same way, and I found a reasonable answer." But my experience reminds me that kind of conversation is futile.

The Christian in you is a good and honorable person; the Hacker News commenter in you knows that such behavior is never rewarded here unless it happens to line up with the HN zeitgeist, which has little patience with any sort of received wisdom that doesn't agree with its own. I find this really quite marvelous. Who could imagine such a batch of soi-disant freethinkers, who all seem to feel the same need to carefully…

Perhaps it won't be as marvelous to you when you consider that some of these freethinkers have spent years open-mindedly trying to integrate these systems into their lives. Years listening to testimonials, trying to find something to grasp onto. Yet still failed to find enough interest, passion, or problem that it solved in their lives.

I don't have to re-install Windows 8 on my laptop once a week to re-confirm the opinions I formed the previous week. To do so would be an irrational waste of time. Your audience is similarly rationally choosing not to re-evaluate until they see a new perspective on the religion or a way of addressing a fundamental flaw that keeps them from embracing religion.

And when they argue with you, have you considered that perhaps they're trying to push through a personal hangup they have that keeps them from embracing it themselves? That they are not trying to put you down, but instead to understand?

For some of us, we've already searched long and hard to no avail.

Re: How Long Have I Got Left?

#150

Post by pstack » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 6:11 PM UTC

philh wrote: post #129

pstack wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't help that life or death issues for men, like testicular cancer, are almost completely ignored. About a decade ago, I had the same concern as you and after a scary doctor visit (which included his female assistant observing, which added to the discomfort but that all mitigated by the more terrifying prospect of this being a life-threatening concern) followed by an ultrasound at the hospital, I was relieved…

> It doesn't help that life or death issues for men, like testicular cancer, are almost completely ignored. This isn't a great example, because testicular cancer is rarely fatal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testicular_cancer > Testicular cancer has one of the highest cure rates of all cancers: a five-year survival rate in excess of 90 percent overall, and almost 100 percent if it has not spread (metastasized).[6] Ev…

And how do you detect it before it spreads, if the issue is completely ignored and people aren't made aware that they should check for abnormalities and take them serious when they encounter them?

Especially for men, who (I think it is a well-deserved stereotype) tend to avoid going to a doctor for anything short of dismemberment.