Live data from Hacker News

How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

pando.com

201–210 of 488 posts

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#201
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

This is because a programmer's contribution to the "20M profit" is not easily quantifiable and measurable being that he is mostly likely part of a team working on a feature that is a part of a whole.

However a lawyer who wins a case or a sale person who sells a big deal can easily point to the quantifiable win to a specific dollar amount.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#202
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you proposing? An alternative credo for hackers to ascribe to? Please specifically mention whether you are pro- or anti-union and whether you live and work in the US or not. Edit: I see you're using Windows, so would you mind also listing your tech experience?

> I see you're using Windows, so would you mind also listing your tech experience? WTF? Please explain your comment. If I take it literally it sounds like sheer unadulterated bigotry. I am hoping that I completely misunderstood you. If that's the case, I very sincerely apologize and owe you a beer or two.

My responses should lead to more discussion, less flamewar.

I have strong feelings against Windows. I should have restrained myself.

I think you pegged me, but to my credit I'm no bigot, I just have a personal bias against Windows.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lawyers and doctors who get paid a whole lot are partners in a firm. It's not much different than founding a tech company.

The difference being that you don't necessarily have to take the enormous risk of founding a company in order to become a partner in a law firm. Is there a similar career path for engineers in any tech company that is the equivalent of "making partner" in a law firm? Genuinely curious.

I'm not sure if it's the same for lawyers, but with a lot of doctors, they have to buy out the guy that's retiring/buy in to become a partner at a practice.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Doctors/lawyers interact with clients/patients a lot, so they dress to impress; whereas programmers only interact with other programmers or managers, who don't really care. If you're a programmer, the code you write matters much more than the human interaction around it (arguably the same can be said about doctors and lawyers, but a lot of people wouldn…

> programmers only interact with other programmers or managers This is the problem half the time. Nerds in childish t-shirts want to sit around pecking out code in isolation instead of taking full responsibility for their work by putting on a jacket and working the organization. This is why IT projects are consistently such disasters and why executives have the idea to get cheap grunts to do this stuff under a layer…

I think you have a certain narrative about how the world works that you'd like the facts to fit into, but the facts - at least in Silicon Valley - don't actually fit into them. I doubt I'll be able to change your mind, but for bystanders' benefit:

The reason that programmers don't dress to impress is that their work product - the value that they add to other people - has nothing to do with their appearance. A programmer is paid for the software she creates; the user of that software has no idea what the programmer who wrote it looks like, and they judge the quality of it by what it does. So programmers have developed other metrics that they use to form a status hierarchy, notably the quality and difficulty of programs that you've written, but also things that are somewhat fuzzier like the technologies and tools you use.

Contrast this with a lawyer or salesman, where your buying decisions are directly influenced by how they present themselves and you often cannot directly determine the quality of their product. People in these professions have a strong incentive to present themselves well because customers have no other information to base their purchasing decisions on.

Certainly in the one metric shared across all professions - money - engineers at top tech companies are not being taken advantage of by management, nor are they "cheap grunts". A senior Google engineer makes more than all than about 2 of the salaries listed on the first page of a GlassDoor CEO search [1].

[1] http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/ceo-salary-SRCH_KO0,3.htm

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#205
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

Remember when Facebook started aggressively poaching Google employees and Google responded publicly by giving every engineer a substantial raise and privately in ways substantially more expensive than that? And Facebook pretty much just laughed and matched offers? And every engineer in the Valley figured out simultaneously that $100k was a floor not a ceiling?

That strikes me as persuasive anecdotal evidence of what happens when a tech titan feels threatened by poaching that they cannot resolve by a gentlemen's agreement.

My recollection for the timing of those opening salvoes in the talent war was mid-2010. This would have been right after the DoJ told the cartel to knock it off.

I'll acknowledge off the top that that may be purely a coincidence.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#206
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

Probably wouldn't provide reliable data. One of the major factors that would have driven up tech salaries was if some of the biggest and most profitable tech companies (indeed, some of the most profitable companies in history) such as Apple, Google, etc. were openly competing to try to lure talent to their companies through financial incentives.

Likely, compared to other industries tech workers were nevertheless handsomely paid, but I think this is still an example of abuse of power.

It's all the more worrisome because the changes in the nature of the stock market and so forth have made it that much more difficult for top tier tech workers to become rich. That used to be the pattern in the '80s and '90s, there are thousands of millionaires who worked at apple, microsoft, etc. for only a decade but were around during those companies' crucial early growth phases. Today I think that phenomenon is much less common except with extremely early stage employees. A lot of startups are the brain children of the sort of top tier techies who made it rich working at various vast growing companies. That variety of wealth is, I believe, very important to the vitality of the industry. But for various reasons it seems to have been significantly curtailed in the last decade or so, but if there is a more competitive marketplace for salaries in the tech field then that would go a long way toward bringing it back.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#207
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. A competent freelance developer in the valley will make $150-200/h. A competent lawyer (not a partner) in the valley will make $350+/h.

I know lawyers who charge $1000+/hour. Name me one programmer who can do the same. Outsourcing has killed our industry in terms of monetary compensation

[deleted]

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#209
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also the beauty of software development—I don't need to have a fancy degree or work ridiculous hours as an associate/intern to get a job in it.

Or given the startup context of this site, I'd phrase it as software development has no Barriers to Entry, which as startups (and yourself) have learned is great for getting into the market, but can be really bad once you establish a foothold and gain experience and realize that competition from new entries into the market severely undercut you on price. So, for those in the industry we need to find ways to add barri…

This is why, as bad as this scandal is, I'm thoroughly opposed to 'professionalization,' and unions in software. Keeping the barriers to entry low is our best bet across the industry. As someone mentioned, a few major SV companies is not the whole tech industry. There are software engineers in every sector of the economy, and if it's payscales we are talking about, the Big Banks can match it.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#210
post #95

Jobs' comments: >OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly? >if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war. Chizen's comment: >if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of ou…

If you are a student, I would still recommend moving to SV. It's probably the best place in the world right now to be a software developer. This wage-theft stuff is for very experienced echelons of engineers.

> If you are a student, I would still recommend moving to SV.

My advice would be to make sure you could find a place to live there first

Post reply on HN