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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#181

Post by josho »

pm90 wrote: post #140
pyrrhotech wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know lawyers who charge $1000+/hour. Name me one programmer who can do the same. Outsourcing has killed our industry in terms of monetary compensation

I would suggest to you to think your premises carefully before coming to such conclusions. When in an unfair situation, it is easy to be angry at a group that you consider as 'outsiders'. However, even with outsourcing, there are thousands of open positions for software developers/architects that are just not getting filled. The only real solution to this problem that I can see is for each of us to be so super smart…

Outsourcing has ensured a downward pressure on salaries. Can an employee that is not allowed to leave his employer really ever going to be earning true market rate on salary? That's the case for HS1B in the US. There is plenty of evidence that salaries are manipulated down.

Now, regarding your proposed solution of becoming a master of rare and difficult skills. That's what I strive for, but that can be a challenge in an industry where technologies are replaced every 5 years or so. In reality it becomes that much harder because unlike other professions the mindset of employers does not respect the concept of 'superstars'. Ie. I can't really name a developer that has the ability to command a 50% premium over his peers. However, I can name several companies that can demand a price premium for their consulting services. So, how do we as a field make the shift from companies achieving a price premium to individuals achieving a salary premium?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#182

Post by scarmig »

sjg007 wrote: post #180
scarmig wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? Most people in the world would kill to make $30k a year. The issue isn't the absolute level of compensation, but the relative split between labor and management/capital. Exploitation is exploitation: a Roman house slave, though better than the majority of slaves, is still exploited and still a slave. And why are you complaining about engineers wanting to get paid closer to the value they provide the company?…

The adage is that those that risk capital reap the rewards..

Adages only go so far. "A day's work for a day's pay." "To each what he deserves."

Every economic function involves risk, to both labor and to capital. There's no reason, however, that the majority of the value should go to capital. The economics of relative scarcity, possibly. But that's not the situation here: market forces didn't decide compensation packages and the return to capital, here. Collusion did, which is a distortion of the market from a situation of perfect competition.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#183

Post by akbar501 »

lmg643 wrote: post #171
pg wrote: post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

It is funny that there would be reason to complain, given that this statistic would probably show that tech is a profitable place to work relative to other industries. But we're talking about the tech employee's relative share of the company's own profits, right? which means cross-industry comparisons aren't relevant. i'm sure this is the line the defense would take. I guess - we would be asked to believe that even t…

> But we're talking about the tech employee's relative share of the company's own profits, right?

Not exactly. The key issue is not whether anyone made more or less money.

What is at issue is violation of US law.

As of today, conspiracy is illegal.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#184

Post by blantonl »

pg wrote: post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

>> It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was.

Against what litmus test?

All the players (Apple, Google, Intuit, etc) were blazing new trails in a whole new economic model - and localized to an economy in the SV. That is why the whole scheme wasn't apparent at the time.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#185

Post by lhnz »

yapcguy wrote: post #164
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech engineers get pushed around by upper management and have failed to professionalize like doctors because too many of them lack social and political savvy. It's a clear personality trait in the profession. Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Can you imagine a top lawyer looking like that? The importance of projecting a serious professional image to the broader society doesn't seem to eve…

Exactly, but it's worse. There are programmers who love calling themselves "geeks", "nerds", "code monkeys" and promote boot camp style schools as well as myths such as "anybody can code" such that people think any homeless person off the street is a coder. You don't get doctors and lawyers talking down their own skills or saying it's easy.

This is the unfortunate truth.

So much for being smart and logical, most will never apply this to anything outside of a computer.

And most will turn their noses up at the ethics which would have them converting their technical ability and wealth into long-term power. (To see how this could be done, look at the relationships and rent-seeking behaviour around startup incubators. Others are deftly stealing your lunch.)

The affordance which a software engineer now has will not last forever; power left on the table is power lost. As engineering becomes more commoditised (through education and simpler tools) the pay check will drastically decrease but the less-than positive terms will remain.

It's a personal choice that anybody can make to raise their opinion of themselves, to learn how an executive (and other professions) behave and to not accept less than they are worth. There's so much opportunity to be had. Nobody should be acting like a cog! You should all be playing greater games and constantly redefining what you believe you can do.

A hustler is just a social hacker; a hacker is just a technical hustler. But a human being, they are neither: they are whatever they wish to be.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#186

Post by goobers »

pg wrote: post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

If that data exists, the plaintiffs' lawyers will get it.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#187

Post by frandroid »

mnglkhn2 wrote: post #165
GVIrish wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the rub though, 240k may be a lot to you, but what if that data scientist is delivering 100 times that value to the company? Who's to say that person shouldn't be paid $500k or $1 million a year. The Yahoo COO who just got let go was paid $109 million in two years. He got a $29 million severance package. Would it be too crazy to suggest that maybe a brilliant engineer who was a major contributor to the success…

It can be tricky and getting murkier quick: what if Google comes back with an argument that that data scientist would not have been able to produce those $2-3 mil without the resources and the infrastructure made available by Google? Would that employee be as productive anywhere else? If the answer is yes, then that employee deserves a larger share of the pie. If the answer is unclear or no, then the employee will re…

You compare Apple to Orange. First you ask if the employee could generate this revenue on her own, and then you compare that to a trader that could generate the same revenue at another firm. Are you comparing employee productivity with and without company resources, or employee productivity between companies A and B?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#188

Post by michaelochurch »

I am so glad this is being revealed now. It's not exactly new, but this is the perfect time.

Why? Because Google Bus Protests, that's why. This is a chance for the people and the engineers to line up, shoulder to shoulder, on the same side and take down the fuckers who've become the elite of this system.

The resistance begins.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#190

Post by lotu »

daemin wrote: post #86
spiderPig wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a H1-B myself, I think I'm pretty much a modern-day slave without the physical shackles. I hate going back to my home country and I love the intellectual, rational environment here. But I'm stuck with my current company until I get a green card which isn't bound to happen in the foreseeable future. I read his book on this and I agree with one of Matloff's points that H1-B should be solely for talent and I also agr…

It's not that H1-B's get paid less than other workers, it is that by having more people available to do the same job it decreases the pay for all people doing said job. That's how the logic would appear to work, supply and demand, etc.

The thing with and H1-B is if they lose their job they have to leave the country the same day. That is a big incentive to work very hard and accept low compensation.
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