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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#171
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

It is funny that there would be reason to complain, given that this statistic would probably show that tech is a profitable place to work relative to other industries.

But we're talking about the tech employee's relative share of the company's own profits, right? which means cross-industry comparisons aren't relevant.

i'm sure this is the line the defense would take. I guess - we would be asked to believe that even though you have the collusion stated as plain as day, "it was not successful" - just talk. And that might actually fly.

but it's crazy to see the greedy underbelly of SV out in the open like this, although it fits with the aggressive ("legal!") tax avoidance strategies. (EDIT: IMHO both behaviors are forms of community theft, even if you don't consider your taxes to be a charitable contribution.)

I suppose it only feels like hypocrisy because of the lionization of our heroes. We expect more, particularly considering how they position themselves relative to their values - "think different" - "don't be evil" - more than just businesses.

50 years from now, once the tech equivalent of the iphone is in every object on earth, I suspect Jobs will be looked at as another Rockefeller - awesome, epic, business man, just not necessarily the guy you aspire to become when you grow up.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech engineers get pushed around by upper management and have failed to professionalize like doctors because too many of them lack social and political savvy. It's a clear personality trait in the profession. Look at the way so many programmers choose to dress and groom. Can you imagine a top lawyer looking like that? The importance of projecting a serious professional image to the broader society doesn't seem to eve…

Exactly, but it's worse. There are programmers who love calling themselves "geeks", "nerds", "code monkeys" and promote boot camp style schools as well as myths such as "anybody can code" such that people think any homeless person off the street is a coder. You don't get doctors and lawyers talking down their own skills or saying it's easy.

Doctors and lawyers use the legal system to limit the number of people they compete with. I will not model my profession on those.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#173
post #171
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

It is funny that there would be reason to complain, given that this statistic would probably show that tech is a profitable place to work relative to other industries. But we're talking about the tech employee's relative share of the company's own profits, right? which means cross-industry comparisons aren't relevant. i'm sure this is the line the defense would take. I guess - we would be asked to believe that even t…

Jobs was epic in his own way. Just not necessarily a nice human being.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#174
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if one person has any chance negotiating against a Fortune 500 company's HR department, legal department etc. Of course, you do. Just vote with your feet.

The point that I think your comment is missing is that if the vast majority of employers are colluding to drive down prices your feet will invariably lead you to a less profitable place overall. Also this response seems to indicate that an individual's actions will hold any meaning against the concerted and united effort of employers. Unless a multitude of others act in concert we, the developers, will be at a disadv…

The world is bigger than a few companies in Silicon Valley. Go work for a bank, in the worst case.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#175
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

Interestingly enough if you work for a financial firm (doing their software) you'll likely get paid significantly better than many tech jobs. Largely due to bonuses based off how much money you bring to the company. Further, 240k for a data scientist isn't necessarily low, they are one of a team and the person who "made" Siri likely is paid much better (I could be wrong, as I do not know for certain).

Siri was an acquisition of a spin-off from SRI International. It is unreported how much Apple paid for it though it is suspected to be in the $200 million range.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#176
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

In cases of conspiracy, I believe the illegal act is the very act of meeting to plan criminal activity.

The effectiveness of such planning is not the deciding factor as to whether or not the people involved have behaved criminally.

As a parallel, planning to distribute illegal drugs is illegal (conspiracy to distribute). While actually distributing is an additional charge. Something similar is going to happen here, where the executives in question may have broken several laws only one of which is conspiracy.

I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong. But this is what I remember from Business Law during my MBA.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#177
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

If you somehow got complete data, you would be certain to find that Google employees received a large raise after these agreements were terminated (as others pointed out in this thread):

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/11/10/on-googles-10-percent-pa...

That was something like 20,000-30,000 people, so if you consider it among the population of the 5 companies involved, it's extremely significant.

That was the largest raise I've received in a 13 year career in Silicon Valley, so I consider it anomalous.

But then you're back to the problem whether correlation is causation. You could conceivably argue that it was due to competition from Facebook, which was not part of those agreements.

In my opinion, salaries were depressed -- although how much and for how long is very hard to determine.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#178
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

In cases of conspiracy, I believe the illegal act is the very act of meeting to plan criminal activity. The effectiveness of such planning is not the deciding factor as to whether or not the people involved have behaved criminally. As a parallel, planning to distribute illegal drugs is illegal (conspiracy to distribute). While actually distributing is an additional charge. Something similar is going to happen here, w…

pg wasn't questioning whether this was illegal or not, he was interested in what the impact was.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#179
post #148

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

Other industries are deeply unlike tech, so comparing salary trends would be meaningless.

A sibling comment suggests that we look at salaries in tech companies that didn't collude. But that doesn't work either, because (1) those salaries could have been indirectly affected by the collusion, and (2) other tech companies are different than Apple, Google, et al -- most importantly, they have less money!

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually complaining about 240k? If that isn't myopia, idk what is. Most people would kill for that salary.

So what? Most people in the world would kill to make $30k a year. The issue isn't the absolute level of compensation, but the relative split between labor and management/capital. Exploitation is exploitation: a Roman house slave, though better than the majority of slaves, is still exploited and still a slave. And why are you complaining about engineers wanting to get paid closer to the value they provide the company?…

The adage is that those that risk capital reap the rewards..
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