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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#141

Post by scarmig »

rfnslyr wrote: post #108
rhizome wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a fairly weak attempt at 'collusion'. What form of success here qualifies as "weak?" If big tech companies are colluding to depress engineer wages, they're pretty obviously failing. You're going to have to show your work here.

The fact that I'm a 21 year old drop out making nearly 100k because I sat in my mom's basement for a few years and studied software that interested me is pretty crazy.

What's even crazier: owners of firms get paid millions or billions of dollars for doing much less than you do--literally nothing besides initially deciding to purchase shares, in large companies--merely because they acquired, one way or another, a big bundle of cash earlier in their history.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#143

Post by mrgriscom »

gress wrote: post #75
bps4484 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here is the same as the solution when Zuckerberg complained about employees leaving their jobs too quickly[1]: Pay your employees more. Figure out what kind of value they bring, and the amount of cost if they were to leave, and adjust their wages accordingly. Make no mistake about it, the ultimate goal of stifling competition is to depress wages. While maybe described as "disrupting operation", it is rea…

You missed my point. The cost of losing a particular employee at a particular point in time can be far greater than the individual contribution they will ever make. That cost is transient because it depends on the state of a particular project. The value of the employee becomes the value of disrupting the project to the competitor. Matching the offer would be an option, but it would cause massive distortion within th…

That is the nature of at-will employment.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#144

Post by Daishiman »

acslater00 wrote: post #84

Yeah hate to spoil the party, but this is not 'wage theft'. Wage theft is very specifically the act of withholding wages that an employee is entitled to according to the terms of his or her employment agreement. What happened here is not even 'price-fixing', it's a fairly weak attempt at 'collusion'. Yes, it seems improper at first blush and the email exchanges are almost comically incriminating, but my guess is that…

What an apologist for corporate theft.

It is absolutely clear that the market price for engineers in a free market would be much higher if there wasn't collusion.

And their efforts are evidently working, because otherwise Jobs wouldn't be threatening other CEOs with "going to war" over this. It's so important to them that they're willing to cut significant cooperative deals with each other.

This is the exact proof that software needs unionization and is not in any exempt from the worldly issues of labor anywhere else.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#145

Post by beachstartup »

United857 wrote: post #65
beachstartup wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES. based on anecdotal evidence, top engineer salaries start capping out at 150k, when in reality this should go into the 300, 400, 500k range like lawyers and finance people make. it's already starting to turn, so i'm hopeful.

At many companies, both startups and established, if you're a top performer and/or joined early enough, stock grants can easily propel you into this range (and beyond).

i'm talking about cash compensation on an annual basis. this is what matters when you are working for a living.

i.e., not the stock lottery which doesn't apply to 99% of people.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#146

Post by pyrrhotech »

United857 wrote: post #65
beachstartup wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES. based on anecdotal evidence, top engineer salaries start capping out at 150k, when in reality this should go into the 300, 400, 500k range like lawyers and finance people make. it's already starting to turn, so i'm hopeful.

At many companies, both startups and established, if you're a top performer and/or joined early enough, stock grants can easily propel you into this range (and beyond).

the figures he referenced are straight salary. A typical 30 year old investment banker at top firms will make 400k salary, but could easily be over 7 figures with bonus. Startup equity is rarely, if ever, worth that much on a risk-adjusted basis.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#147

Post by lmg643 »

zaidf wrote: post #24
aspensmonster wrote: post #14

Jobs' comments: >OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly? >if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war. Chizen's comment: >if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of ou…

This is where he crosses the asshole line over to scumbag and crook territory. I say this as someone who respects Jobs deeply for his product vision.

This whole episode is pretty depressing. But, it's far better for people to live without illusions about the nature of their bosses, etc.

At the risk of a hundred downvotes, I wonder how many people can see the parallels in the current silicon valley push for "immigration reform."

Having watched H1B farms style companies up close and personal, I can say there is very little to recommend about this model of employment, other than the CEOs like having a lower employee expense base. It might sound more exciting to hear the pitch from a wunderkind like Mark Z, but it's still the same story.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#148

Post by pg »

It seems like we should be able to measure whatever effect there was. There must be sources of data about salaries in the Bay Area. Has anyone tried looking to see if there is a depression in tech workers' salaries, relative to people in other fields, during the time this agreement was in force?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#149

Post by pm90 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #120
rohunati wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually complaining about 240k? If that isn't myopia, idk what is. Most people would kill for that salary.

A lot of these people seem to think they should be paid like Wall Street traders. To which I say, "Fine, go be a trader."

I know you have been downvoted to hell, but I completely agree with the point you are making. We engineers might think that traders are not adding any value at all, and it true to a certain level. But they make money where they can, show what they made and demand a reasonable compensation.

If all software developers had the social skills of traders, we would indeed be paid much more than what we are now.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#150

Post by abalone »

I think I've read anecdotal stories about companies like google paying huge sums to hold onto engineers, like 6 and 7 figures. Does anyone know what I'm talking about and is this a result of recruitment pressure by startups.. Who obviously don't have the same agreements in place?

If so that would seem to support what the plaintiffs are saying.

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