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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#51

Post by sounds »

leoc wrote: post #45
raganwald wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And therein lies the problem. Although these companies are being prosecuted, nobody wants to run afoul of them or anybody else. I'm not saying that any one individual or company is presently a bullying wrongdoer, but what I am saying is that there is an culture of fear around speaking out or rubbing people the wrong way. This atmosphere--along with the kind of proprietary shenanigans that make it difficult or impossi…

Note that of the fairly sizable group of high-profile, well-informed SV people who frequent this site, you never see one of them comment on a post related to this scandal.

I assume you're aware of who raganwald is, the person you're replying to? Not technically Silicon Valley, but close enough.

I've deliberately kept my account "low-profile" for exactly this reason.

I'm in SV and frequently rub shoulders with these people. Trust me, they're not ignorant. They've picked a side already.

But it's so much easier to play hardball with a new hire who doesn't know anything; thus this kind of thing is "ignored."

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#52

Post by ryandrake »

dasil003 wrote: post #7

As a programmer sure this annoys me, but I find it a bit disingenuous to tie it to growing societal inequality. Tech workers are definitely on the beneficiary side of the inequality gap, so I don't see how these conspiracies to indirectly keep tech workers salaries down to 2x to 5x of median American household income is really germane.

I strongly disagree that the average tech worker is on the "beneficiary side" of the inequality gap. This is a case of people looking around themselves and seeing they seem to be above average, and concluding that they are on the rich side. Reminds me of a ten-year-old article [1] that presented the remarkable finding that 39% of Americans believe they are or will one day be among the top 1%.

It's certainly in the interests of those REALLY on the right side of the gap to have tech workers believe they are on their side.

[1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-hop...

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#53

Post by pstack »

dasil003 wrote: post #7

As a programmer sure this annoys me, but I find it a bit disingenuous to tie it to growing societal inequality. Tech workers are definitely on the beneficiary side of the inequality gap, so I don't see how these conspiracies to indirectly keep tech workers salaries down to 2x to 5x of median American household income is really germane.

So, anyone who has any sort of income at all should be humble and content, because while someone may be artificially hindering their income and networth, at least they aren't a homeless person on the street with no income. I guess . . .?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#54

Post by talmand »

hkmurakami wrote: post #43
talmand wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even re-investment back into the company could lead to increased revenues for the people at the top. Regardless, I find it doubtful you could possibly prove such a thing, even if it were true. One just has to assume that such things helps the company, which in turn helps the people who profit from the company doing well.

> Even re-investment back into the company could lead to increased revenues for the people at the top. I think the best comparison is Wall Street firms, where a disprportionate chunk of revenues are paid out as compensation to employees. There's longstanding criticism by shareholders that this outsized compensation should be reduced in favor of giving back that value to shareholders. "re-investment" back into Google…

True, but as the article seems to point out, the people at the top tend to be major shareholders of the company they work for, as well for the other companies in the group that they were board members.

So, in that train of thinking, they double-dipped by helping the bottom line of multiple companies of which they profit from with their illegal agreements.

Remember how Jobs was considered such a good person for taking a $1 (or something low like that) salary at Apple? How much stake in the Apple stock did he have? He wasn't benefiting from a salary from Apple, but probably was from Apple's profit margins. Profit margins that likely benefited from such agreements.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#55

Post by sjg007 »

hkmurakami wrote: post #38
sjg007 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They way you change it is by starting your own company.

Except for the fact that startup founders by in large perpetuate the owner-employee inequity that they themselves were a victim of. Really, it reminds me of fraternities/athletics and hazing.

So choose to work for a startup that doesn't do that. There are plenty of profit sharing companies out there. Or become a quant where you can eat what you kill.

Inequity, really has nothing to do with fairness. If the startup can't hire, they will offer more until they do hire (or go out of business or worse never achieve). What you can negotiate is based on your position. If you are ex-Google or Facebook you can make bank at a more established tech company looking to turnaround (cough.. cough.. Yahoo) or at a startup looking for "top talent" or get access to VC funding. It is the same dynamics you see in professional sports.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#56

Post by trysomething »

This conduct is obviously despicable, though certainly not out-of-character for Steve Jobs (all due respect for his talents). However, I generally believe this will resolve (and has been resolving) itself via market mechanisms. The mistaken assumption is that the only competition here is between Apple, Google etc and that it is focused primarily on income.

The market is a lot more subtle than that:

  1. Hackers are not simply mercenaries, esp. the best. 
  2. A decent % of the best are involved in startups, either as  founders or early hires. 
  3. "Acquihires" are a mechanism for the best engineers to get paid more "outside" the system. 
  4. Aside from industry, there is competition from academia etc.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#57

Post by smoyer »

I don't agree that these agreements are ethical, but can someone explain how they're different from the way a professional sports team manages the rules for players transitioning from team to team? Perhaps the leagues should have more oversight too?

Note that this completely ignores the NFL's non-profit status ... why was that ever granted?

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#58

Post by kirubakaran »

zaidf wrote: post #24
aspensmonster wrote: post #14

Jobs' comments: >OK, I’ll tell our recruiters they are free to approach any Adobe employee who is not a Sr. Director or VP. Am I understanding your position correctly? >if you [Brin] hire a single one of these people that means war. Chizen's comment: >if I tell Steve [Jobs] it’s open season (other than senior managers), he will deliberately poach Adobe just to prove a point. Knowing Steve, he will go after some of ou…

This is where he crosses the asshole line over to scumbag and crook territory. I say this as someone who respects Jobs deeply for his product vision.

He has always been there.

"Jobs told him that Atari gave them only $700 (instead of the offered $5,000), and that Wozniak's share was thus $350. Wozniak did not learn about the actual bonus until ten years later, but said that if Jobs had told him about it and had said he needed the money, Wozniak would have given it to him."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Wozniak

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#60

Post by ryandrake »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #48
msoad wrote: post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

The lawyers and doctors who get paid a whole lot are partners in a firm. It's not much different than founding a tech company.

The difference being that you don't necessarily have to take the enormous risk of founding a company in order to become a partner in a law firm.

Is there a similar career path for engineers in any tech company that is the equivalent of "making partner" in a law firm? Genuinely curious.

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