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How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

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Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the money that would have gone to the programmers goes to the upper executive layers instead. This merely moves things around slightly, and if anything further squeezes wealth into the top 1% as opposed to top 10%. This whole story looks fairly damning, especially to Jobs and Schmidt, though that is probably the intent. Faced with a hiring war with 2005 era Jobs you'd have to have serious guts to refuse - like app…

>So the money that would have gone to the programmers goes to the upper executive layers instead. This merely moves things around slightly, and if anything further squeezes wealth into the top 1% as opposed to top 10%. Citation needed. Where do you see that it went to the people at the top and wasn't invested back into the company?

Even re-investment back into the company could lead to increased revenues for the people at the top.

Regardless, I find it doubtful you could possibly prove such a thing, even if it were true. One just has to assume that such things helps the company, which in turn helps the people who profit from the company doing well.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#32
post #2

Now that this is exposed and (presumably) not as present, has anyone done any work to see if salaries at Apple, Google, etc have since risen higher than salaries at companies who weren't involved with such activity? This sort of shenanigans went on 100 years ago, but we couldn't study the consequences so tightly back then...it seems that Glassdoor's data, H1B data, etc provides a unique opportunity to study the effec…

Anecdotally salaries at the major tech companies just shot up in early 2011, which was soon after the DOJ started its investigation. It's hard to infer causation though, as this could have been because of rising competition from Facebook for employees, or it could have been because of the large amount of seed capital sloshing around in the startup world then, or it could have been because of the Fed's easy-money poli…

Facebook was the company that broke the cabal based on everything I've heard from friends at these companies. I think it actually started a little before 2011, more like the end of 2009, early 2010. Facebook was (obviously) not averse to poaching employees of other companies, and was particularly good at hiring ex-Googlers by offering large stock grants and relatively high salaries (~150k + 100k+ in options) for someone with 2-3 years of experience out of school. Google made some jaw dropping counteroffers to those who left and gave everyone a large raise and bonus at the end of 2010 as a result of the increased competition.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#33
[Tangential] This is going to be a heavily unpopular opinion, but I bet the whole drive of "Teach everyone to code" broadly comes under the same umbrella. Shortage of tech workers? Well, there is a predicted massive shortage of doctors and nurses in the US too [0] (huge healthcare expenses, anyone?), but there is no drive to teach everyone to learn basic nursing / medical skills. Why?

Because doctors are very careful to promote the worldview, "This is very important, it can't be done by just anyone, can it?" even for minor things like coughs and colds; while completely glossing over stuff like community health. Ever seen your doctor friend volunteer for a "Let's teach everyone basic emergency responder skills!" campaign? Why not a "Let's teach everyone basic vaccine administration" project; so we can stop paying through the nose for, say, birth control shots? Because nurses and doctors are heavily unionized, unlike, say, software devs or sysadmins -- and such initiatives would be strongly discouraged by the unions.

So, when you participate enthusiastically in that "Let's teach everyone to code!" event sponsored by $BIG_CORPORATION, be aware that you are slowly but surely driving down wages for tech workers.

[0] http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230450690...

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#34

I'm curious. Are the executives who make these illegal agreements to restrain trade ever personally held liable? It seems that would be more effective than fining the companies, or the usual "We don't admit to doing anything wrong, but here's some money anyways." Apologies for the green account, but I would prefer not to have my real name attached to such a discussion.

And therein lies the problem. Although these companies are being prosecuted, nobody wants to run afoul of them or anybody else. I'm not saying that any one individual or company is presently a bullying wrongdoer, but what I am saying is that there is an culture of fear around speaking out or rubbing people the wrong way. This atmosphere--along with the kind of proprietary shenanigans that make it difficult or impossi…

>the value these barons robbed from the economy.

It's genuinely impressive how you contort people willingly giving their money to Apple, Google, Pixar and Lucasfilm for goods and services into them robbing money from the economy.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#35
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

They way you change it is by starting your own company.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#36
post #7

As a programmer sure this annoys me, but I find it a bit disingenuous to tie it to growing societal inequality. Tech workers are definitely on the beneficiary side of the inequality gap, so I don't see how these conspiracies to indirectly keep tech workers salaries down to 2x to 5x of median American household income is really germane.

Every tech job creates 4.3 other jobs[1] Maybe that would be 5 or 6 or 7 other jobs if the market was allowed to function without manipulation. So yes it does directly effect social inequality in general.

1. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Tech-hiring-creates-other...

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#37
post #13

Every time I read an article about this I fell like I'm at The Onion. Drive ++down++ engineer wages? Really? Does anyone on planet earth feel like engineer wages are/were artificially low?

They could be, it's all relative of course. The most affected engineers in this case were likely the cream of the crop. It's in a way analogous to professional sports, where (if salaries were truly unrestricted) the very top players could easily demand a multiple of their already astronomical salaries. To combat this, some leagues like the NBA have 'salary caps' and 'maximum contracts'. You won't see the government going after this extremely obvious anti-worker collusion because there isn't much sympathy for multi-millionaire athletes. However, salaries for the best are almost certainly artificially low.

In a larger sense, argument isn't about what the affected workers "should" be paid, it's about who gets to decide: the potential recruits or their prospective employers.

As someone who believes that free markets generally "find a way" (in spite of information asymmetry), I'm hesitant to endorse the government's view point. One good thing that can come of this is more of these top-notch engineers get fed up with this sort of behaviour and start more startups. At the same time, I'm not going to shed any tears for Apple or Google if they lose in the courts.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#38
post #35
post #26

Engineers should make more money than what they are making now. The largest number I heard lately is $240k for a data scientist from Apple. That's too low! That person can make Siri better and make millions for Apple. Why aren't we getting paid like lawyers? If they win $20M they will get paid at least $2M. But if we make a product that generates $20M profit, at best we get $20K bonus. This has to change!

They way you change it is by starting your own company.

Except for the fact that startup founders by in large perpetuate the owner-employee inequity that they themselves were a victim of. Really, it reminds me of fraternities/athletics and hazing.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#39
post #8

It may be that the consequences of the 'conspiracy' was to depress wages, and it should clearly be prosecuted if the legal case can be made. However does anyone think that this was the intention behind these agreements? Isn't it more likely that they wanted to stop an insane war on one another's businesses by buying off key employees to disrupt one another's operations? It would seem as though companies with a giant…

> does anyone think that this was the intention behind these agreements?

Absolutely.

> Isn't it more likely that ...

This is a just-so story.

> It would seem as though ...

All companies are vulnerable to losing key employees. There are two ways to address this problem: (1) do good, legal things to address it (2) do bad, illegal things to address it.

I mean, to use a perfectly ridiculous analogy, suppose for a minute that engineers are cards from Magic: the Gathering and that CEOs and their executive teams are the players. A CEO can probably count on the loyalty of their inner circle. Or at least I would hope so. A CEO with a disloyal inner circle is going to be toast sooner rather than later. But generally speaking you can't count on the loyalty of engineers. They care more about the challenge, the money, the excitement, being a hero, being a rock star, etc... and the high-level ones tend to act like rock stars (not all of them by any means, but a substantial and vocal minority). These are the "rare" cards in Magic: the Gathering. They are super-valuable and they can make the difference between winning and losing.

Now imagine playing this card game where the cards have minds of their own. We can sorta rationalize an anti-competitive agreement between the players, a prohibition on poaching each other's engineers, product managers, designers, etc... because the players all want to play the game a certain way and don't want the headache of dealing with brain drain. They rationalize, "it just makes playing the game a little bit easier and allows us to sleep at night". The problem is that in the real world, it is real people who get hurt when these kinds of agreements get made. Doing this is not only illegal, it is wrong. You're creating an agreement that essentially says, "these engineers are my property, those engineers are your property. We agree to not steal each other's property."

By making such an agreement, you're intentionally depriving another human being of a legitimate economic opportunity. You're saying to them, "I'm going to deprive you of an opportunity for my own benefit, and I don't care about how it affects you or your life."

I find this sickening. You might as well say, "I'm going to sacrifice your happiness to increase the size of my bank account". It is a form of exploitation. I mean, I'm a fire-breathing free-enterprise capitalist, but the Marxist line of reasoning about exploitation and alienation rings true on this one. The problem here is that free-enterprise principles are being violated.

> The result would be a destruction of value

Perhaps, but I can use a similar style of argument for the opposite conclusion. If a few key employees would have gotten substantially more money, then you would see those employees, as a group, making different decisions. They might have gotten together to create a new innovative company in which they were much more personally invested. It is possible that huge opportunities for value creation have been missed and can never be recovered.

Re: How Silicon Valley CEOs conspired to drive down tech engineer wages

#40
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally salaries at the major tech companies just shot up in early 2011, which was soon after the DOJ started its investigation. It's hard to infer causation though, as this could have been because of rising competition from Facebook for employees, or it could have been because of the large amount of seed capital sloshing around in the startup world then, or it could have been because of the Fed's easy-money poli…

Facebook was the company that broke the cabal based on everything I've heard from friends at these companies. I think it actually started a little before 2011, more like the end of 2009, early 2010. Facebook was (obviously) not averse to poaching employees of other companies, and was particularly good at hiring ex-Googlers by offering large stock grants and relatively high salaries (~150k + 100k+ in options) for some…

I wonder how much things have increased beyond the initial 10% pay bump in 2010: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/11/10/on-googles-10-percent-pa...
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