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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#111

Post by res0nat0r »

Karunamon wrote: post #109
res0nat0r wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to talk shit to anyone you want in a bar; you are also free to get your ass kicked. Antagonizing a cop just to be a dick will probably result in those minor charges he would have ignored if you were nice, getting written up with a smile on his face. That's 100% your fault in that case.

The guy in the bar isn't bound by law and ethics to be professional and respect the constitution. The cop is.

Writing you a ticket that he is legally entitled to do because you are being a dick is totally professional and in line with the constitution.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#112

Post by res0nat0r »

angersock wrote: post #108
res0nat0r wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are cases of abusing their power, this is normal for any industry, doesn't mean it is the norm.

Very few industries are capable of as thoroughly ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so. We have to look at the worst-case outcomes and make our safeguards against them; anything else is inviting disaster.

There are safeguards in place unless I'm mistaken (looking at you Internal Affairs).

> ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so.

The mandate of law enforcement across the USA is to freely destroy peoples lives? Interesting...

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#113

Post by DanBC »

gareim wrote: post #110
angersock wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

several terrorists that could have been caught slipped by. To what effect? Was it really that big a deal?

It really was. At least once, known al-Qaeda terrorists did a trial run prior to 9/11. And for a month up to the day before 9/11, Agent Samit was desperately trying to stop Moussaoui by getting a warrant to search his laptop, but a breakdown in communication at the FBI let Moussaoui pretty much get away with it. Then we all know what happened 9/11. This really presents an interesting problem, I think. Reading the eff…

I think I would prefer to spend some of that security money on making transport safer or on Mental health programmes or on better energy use or etc etc. All of those things cause far more problems than terrorism has.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#114

Post by Karunamon »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
angersock wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few industries are capable of as thoroughly ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so. We have to look at the worst-case outcomes and make our safeguards against them; anything else is inviting disaster.

There are safeguards in place unless I'm mistaken (looking at you Internal Affairs). > ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so. The mandate of law enforcement across the USA is to freely destroy peoples lives? Interesting...

>There are safeguards in place unless I'm mistaken (looking at you Internal Affairs).

Yes, I recall the NSA and other government agencies having such self-policing groups.

Tell me, do you really in your heart of hearts think a corrupt organization (say a police dept in a specific place.. if pressed for an example, say Maricopa County in Arizona?) has a functioning IA group?

The federal government has an IA group too. Many of them. I'm sure that if Snowden had raised his concerns with them, they would have gladly worked with him to solve those problems.......

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#115

Post by Karunamon »

res0nat0r wrote: post #111
Karunamon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy in the bar isn't bound by law and ethics to be professional and respect the constitution. The cop is.

Writing you a ticket that he is legally entitled to do because you are being a dick is totally professional and in line with the constitution.

What ticket do you suppose I deserve for using the words "Fuck off cop"?

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#116

Post by angersock »

res0nat0r wrote: post #112
angersock wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few industries are capable of as thoroughly ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so. We have to look at the worst-case outcomes and make our safeguards against them; anything else is inviting disaster.

There are safeguards in place unless I'm mistaken (looking at you Internal Affairs). > ruining somebody's life as an abuse of power by cops--especially since they are given carte blanche to do so. The mandate of law enforcement across the USA is to freely destroy peoples lives? Interesting...

Look, there are enough laws and regulations on the books that you can get written up (legally, strictly speaking) for almost anything. Then, it is up to you how far you wish to assert your innocence--the DA will offer to plea you out again and again, and if you make it to court they will then try to make an example out of you, using whatever tricks suit them (all legal, mind you!). There is plenty of evidence and coverage of this happening, so don't pretend it is unreasonable to fear.

That all said, going back to the very first interaction--you and the cop--we see that it becomes purely a decision on the cop's part whether or not you are going to be sent down into the machine.

Justice should not be so arbitrary, but here in the US it oftentimes is; don't pretend otherwise.

EDIT:

As for safeguards...the state can deprive you of years of freedom and set you free afterwards with an "oops". That's bullshit, even if the safeguards finally kick in. And if you end up with "resisting arrest" or just antagonizing the system or embarassing a DA, those safeguards seem to magically fail.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#117

Post by res0nat0r »

Karunamon wrote: post #115
res0nat0r wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing you a ticket that he is legally entitled to do because you are being a dick is totally professional and in line with the constitution.

What ticket do you suppose I deserve for using the words "Fuck off cop"?

Reread what I said above...If you are being a dick because you want to "stick it to the man", well expect the man to stick it back to you and write you up for those petty offenses he would have otherwise ignored.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#118

Post by Karunamon »

res0nat0r wrote: post #117
Karunamon wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ticket do you suppose I deserve for using the words "Fuck off cop"?

Reread what I said above...If you are being a dick because you want to "stick it to the man", well expect the man to stick it back to you and write you up for those petty offenses he would have otherwise ignored.

Problem there is often times people have recieved BS citations for "disturbing the peace" or other nonsense citations which plainly don't apply (i.e. because contempt of cop isn't a crime), but still result in court time and hassle for the accused.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#119

Post by gareim »

DanBC wrote: post #113
gareim wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really was. At least once, known al-Qaeda terrorists did a trial run prior to 9/11. And for a month up to the day before 9/11, Agent Samit was desperately trying to stop Moussaoui by getting a warrant to search his laptop, but a breakdown in communication at the FBI let Moussaoui pretty much get away with it. Then we all know what happened 9/11. This really presents an interesting problem, I think. Reading the eff…

I think I would prefer to spend some of that security money on making transport safer or on Mental health programmes or on better energy use or etc etc. All of those things cause far more problems than terrorism has.

Yes, I completely agree with you that security spending can be trimmed if we make it more efficient. And yes, that money definitely should go to public programs that improve on our well-being (less attacks then!).

However, I just want to state that we can't completely ignore security either. If bombs are going to go off around us (we cannot make 100% of people non-violent), it's not as if we could stand still and take no action either.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#120

Post by CamperBob2 »

gareim wrote: post #6
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…

I'm not saying that Brand is right, but there is reason to worry that this could happen again

There is reason to worry that a great many things could happen again. An increase in the number of Zoloft prescriptions in the greater Washington, DC area is pretty far from the top of my list of concerns.

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