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The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

wired.com

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Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#21

Post by tptacek »

ihsw wrote: post #12

The comparison is fairly skin deep: * mandatory minimum sentences * lopsided plea bargains (you can go to jail for anywhere between 18 months to 30 years, depending on whether you take the bargain) * prosecutors pushing for convictions as a means of adding to their professional scorecard * rampant fear and paranoia (marijuana is a gateway drug! command line interfaces are scary!) * using that fear and paranoia to pas…

Which of those attributes doesn't apply to pretty much every other federal crime?

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#22

Post by tptacek »

windexh8er wrote: post #20
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been idly working on an essay for... I don't know, 5 years now? about how computers and the Internet catalyze harm, by shielding people who cause harm from the impact of their action, and by making harmful actions practically indistinguishable from benign ones --- "click this button and 'like' someone on Facebook, click this other button and help DDoS someone whose politics you disagree with". I have some sympat…

Would this truly fit "real damage" in your opinion? Based on the outcome I'd project it doesn't - but the real question is do you feel the potential punishment is representative of the crime? I'm guessing the actual monetary value assessed was some consultative analysis paid out to investigate the "breach", beyond that I find it hard to believe the actual cost to fix was more than three figures.

Of course it does. And if they paid forensic analysts to track down the breach, they got the deal of a lifetime; we don't do that kind of work, but of course work with other firms that do, and $15k is below table stakes for that kind of work. A high-profile forensics investigation can clear 50k easy.

And again, while cost accelerators on sentences are disquieting and a serious problem, they're not the fulcrum for Keys' outcome; it's the combination of cost, overtly damaging acts, and abuse of authority that combine to put Keys in Zone C. Put differently: had Keys not been a Reuters employee, he'd be eligible for probation. (He could still be, depending on what the prosecution does and doesn't manage to prove. Unlike drug defendants, Keys has excellent representation.)

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#23

Post by tptacek »

Crito wrote: post #19
hansjorg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original claim is outlandish and devoid of any perspective, but comparing this to the "War on Terror" is just mind boggling. You do realize that there's a world outside the US where the "War on Terror" has had some pretty devastating effects. Or was that a joke?

Oh fucking christ, I am not having the conversation in two places at once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110399 My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties. It is a statement about the motivation of the people driving it. It isn't motivated by fear…

Which teenagers in prison for decades were you referring to?

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#24

Post by agwa »

ihsw wrote: post #12

The comparison is fairly skin deep: * mandatory minimum sentences * lopsided plea bargains (you can go to jail for anywhere between 18 months to 30 years, depending on whether you take the bargain) * prosecutors pushing for convictions as a means of adding to their professional scorecard * rampant fear and paranoia (marijuana is a gateway drug! command line interfaces are scary!) * using that fear and paranoia to pas…

Actually, the CFAA carries no mandatory minimum. The judge could, though it's unlikely, choose to completely ignore the sentencing guidelines (which are advisory) when sentencing for a CFAA offense. In contrast, many federal drug crimes have specific mandatory minimums which actually do tie the judge's hands when sentencing.[1]

And all the other attributes are true of practically every federal crime, not just drug crimes. The premise of this article is pretty terrible.

[1] List of federal crimes with mandatory minimums: http://famm.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chart-All-Fed-MMs...

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#25

Post by tptacek »

asmallfish wrote: post #6

The government gives harsher sentences to hackers than many rapists. This is because it is actually afraid of hackers. Hackers hold power that petty criminals do not. The sentences for hackers are completely ridiculous because they are created by fear.

The case you're thinking of where a hacker got a harsher sentence than a rapist is... what? Did one of those cases perhaps involve juveniles, and the other adults? The base offense level for rape in the federal sentencing guidelines is far higher than that for computer fraud.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#26

Post by hansjorg »

Crito wrote: post #19
hansjorg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original claim is outlandish and devoid of any perspective, but comparing this to the "War on Terror" is just mind boggling. You do realize that there's a world outside the US where the "War on Terror" has had some pretty devastating effects. Or was that a joke?

Oh fucking christ, I am not having the conversation in two places at once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110399 My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties. It is a statement about the motivation of the people driving it. It isn't motivated by fear…

To see the War on Terror as chiefly about domestic power grabs and pointless expenditures is the prerogative of US tax payers and US citizens, but it's also a pretty narrow point of view.

If you're going to make coarse, meaningless comparisons and only after that narrowing it down with qualifications, I guess the original article was right. Hacker Panic is the new War on Drugs. Except for all the ways it is not, of course.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#27

Post by at-fates-hands »

This guy's an attorney and he compares a local/county crime (vandalism) to a federal crime (CFAA) and expects the sentencing to be the same? I'm speechless.

I'm not hacker, but even I know pretty much anything having to do with any unauthorized access to someone's computer is a FEDERAL offense. Regardless of whether you were the person breaking into that computer or not. Even Keys should have know what he was doing was a crime.

It's the same defense people use when they're with someone in the commission of a crime. "I was only there, I didn't kill the guy, Jim did." which is not a viable defense. You're at the least an accessory to the crime, and at worst, helped in the commission of a crime like driving the getaway car, hiding evidence, etc.

The whole premise of the article is completely flawed.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#28

Post by bernardom »

tptacek wrote: post #22
windexh8er wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this truly fit "real damage" in your opinion? Based on the outcome I'd project it doesn't - but the real question is do you feel the potential punishment is representative of the crime? I'm guessing the actual monetary value assessed was some consultative analysis paid out to investigate the "breach", beyond that I find it hard to believe the actual cost to fix was more than three figures.

Of course it does. And if they paid forensic analysts to track down the breach, they got the deal of a lifetime; we don't do that kind of work, but of course work with other firms that do, and $15k is below table stakes for that kind of work. A high-profile forensics investigation can clear 50k easy. And again, while cost accelerators on sentences are disquieting and a serious problem, they're not the fulcrum for Key…

Sideways-related question.

What if Tribune had a sister company in some other country (Australia) that did something completely unrelated. Sell children's toys or something.

An admin for the sister company gives up his credentials in order for Anonymous to deface the children's site. They instead use it to deface the Chicago Tribune.

The admin has no earthly clue that the systems are inter-related. In fact, they've been told that the systems are independent by design; anonymous found a very clever flaw.

Is he as guilty as your hypothetical Tribune admin who gave up his password to deface the Tribune?

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#29

Post by Crito »

hansjorg wrote: post #26
Crito wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh fucking christ, I am not having the conversation in two places at once: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7110399 My comparison between Hacker Panic to the War on Terror is not meant to imply that a few teenagers getting sent to prison for decades is equivalent in any respect to raining missiles down on wedding parties. It is a statement about the motivation of the people driving it. It isn't motivated by fear…

To see the War on Terror as chiefly about domestic power grabs and pointless expenditures is the prerogative of US tax payers and US citizens, but it's also a pretty narrow point of view. If you're going to make coarse, meaningless comparisons and only after that narrowing it down with qualifications, I guess the original article was right. Hacker Panic is the new War on Drugs. Except for all the ways it is not, of c…

It's not just about domestic power, and even if it was, it would not effect the veracity of the comparison.

The War on Terror uses racism as a tool. The War on Drugs is waged because of racism. Racism was not simply a tool used by the War on Drugs, it was the reason for it in the first place.

Is the Hacker Panic created and driven by fear of hackers, or is fear of hackers merely a tool being used to achieve another goal? I am arguing it is the later.

> "I guess the original article was right. Hacker Panic is the new War on Drugs. Except for all the ways it is not, of course."

I am saying that the War on Terror is a more apt and useful comparison if we want to answer any "why" questions. The comparison to the War on Drugs does not give us any useful insight.

Re: The U.S. Crackdown on Hackers Is Our New War on Drugs

#30

Post by ihsw »

tptacek wrote: post #21
ihsw wrote: post #12

The comparison is fairly skin deep: * mandatory minimum sentences * lopsided plea bargains (you can go to jail for anywhere between 18 months to 30 years, depending on whether you take the bargain) * prosecutors pushing for convictions as a means of adding to their professional scorecard * rampant fear and paranoia (marijuana is a gateway drug! command line interfaces are scary!) * using that fear and paranoia to pas…

Which of those attributes doesn't apply to pretty much every other federal crime?

Yeah, you're right. It's a bit of a shitty news article, but it's good at grabbing your attention.
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