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An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

arstechnica.com

51–60 of 94 posts

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#51
Global warming is one of those tough issues for me. I guess you could call me a skeptic, but I try very hard to be a thoughtful skeptic.

What makes the whole conversation unproductive is there appears to be two sides: one which argues there is no problem and we must do nothing, and the other side says that the problem is going to end the world as we know it and we must change our entire way of living and make it our number one priority.

For me, there is a progression of questions that I must answer before I can sign on to the latter's assertions., And they look something like this:

1. Is the world warming? I think it most certainly is, but I would also note that it appears that the warming trend has halted for the past 10 to 20 years. From what I can gather, scientists have reasons why that might be the case but have not explained it.

2. Is the warming man-made? To a large degree, I believe that it is. However, there are a lot of things that we don't understand about climate (solar cycles, effects of water vapor, ocean CO2 sequestration, etc.) If I had to put a number on it, I would say 50 to 60% man-made.

3. Can we do anything about it? This is where I begin to separate from the global warming crowd. Theoretically, we can certainly do something about it, but having worked in government I just don't see any practical way that we can reduce greenhouse emissions to such an extent that it's going to make a great difference. Further, china and India are ramping up their CO2 emissions, and there's nothing that the developed countries can do about it. Finally, I have ethical objections to telling developed countries that they have to use less energy which will inevitably result in more lives lost due to starvation or simply just malnutrition and poverty.

4. Should we do anything about it? I believe this is a cost-benefit analysis. And I haven't done the analysis myself, but sometimes I question whether spending the enormous amounts of money today is worth putting off an uncertain disaster tomorrow when we have actual problems today that we could be working on instead. We have millions of people every year dying from malnutrition, poor water supplies, malaria, HIV/AIDS, etc. Why not save those actual lives instead of spending the money saving hypothetical lives in 100 years. And indeed, won't we be more suited to save those lines in 100 years than we are right now, meaning that the mitigation effort could be a lot cheaper?

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be a clear science argument if there weren't groups that are very motivated (money, power) to misdirect the public by making "doubts" for their own gains, as the article clearly illustrates. Definitely. There are groups willing to spend a lot of money to spread doubt about global warming. And, there are groups willing spend a lot of money to spread fear about global warming. > There is a practical scientif…

Once there was a consensus the sun rotated around the earth and that was dis-proven by a guy with a telescope and good record keeping. There was a recent article in Scientific American about this (unfortunately, subscription required). Given the size of the image of a star seen thru a telescope, either the size or the distance can be calculated from the other by elementary geometry. Because of diffraction from the wa…

I read through this a while back and it is an interesting exploration of the whole Geocentric/Heliocentric dust-up (or smackdown as they call it):

http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-great-ptolemaic-smac...

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#53
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not unsympathetic to the exasperation of scientists concerning that their work is being dismissed by people who don't have the expertise to evaluate it, but all this talk about a "consensus" is where they shoot themselves in the foot. Science doesn't advance by "consensus". And using that as the defense is just a different type of faith (faith in the omniscience of the group). Prior to the 80's the 'consensus' wa…

The problem is that deniers don't advance the science. They are just trolling, effectively obstructing the possible improvements. Please read the article for an example of a huge trolling action. The consensus just means that the different scientists can independently reproduce the similar results. You can do the calculations yourself too.

> The consensus just means that the different scientists can independently reproduce the similar results. You can do the calculations yourself too.

But that's not how the 'consensus' is being used in argument. The way that advocates use it as a bludgeon: that because 99% of all climate scientists agree with anthropocentric climate change that any argument to the contrary is ludicrous and ought to be dismissed outright. Now, I don't think (I guess I hope) that the actual scientists think in those terms. But that's how their advocates (Al Gore and the like) frame the issue. And that both hurts their cause and provides fuel for the opposition. I'd bet that if Al Gore had never entered the cultural debate over climate change it would be much, much healthier.

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#54
post #51

Global warming is one of those tough issues for me. I guess you could call me a skeptic, but I try very hard to be a thoughtful skeptic. What makes the whole conversation unproductive is there appears to be two sides: one which argues there is no problem and we must do nothing, and the other side says that the problem is going to end the world as we know it and we must change our entire way of living and make it our…

> ...but having worked in government I just don't see any practical way...

Yeah, in the same way that scientists discovered that CFGs are eating away ozone layer, but the world's governments were too incompetent to meaningfully reduce CFG production, and now we end up with all the Penguins dying in Antarctica and people dying of skin cancer in New Zealand?

Or in the same way scientists discovered sulfur emissions caused acid rain, but the US government implemented a piss-poor version of "cap and trade" program[1] that was doomed to failure, and much of the Rocky and Appalachian mountains is now barren wasteland?

Never mind the science (which has literally ocean-ful of evidences now). Even the economics of reducing emission is proven to work.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_Rain_Program

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#55
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. The planet goes through natural cycles of warming and cooling. Man made "climate change" of any stripe is a hoax.

"hoax" seems like way too charged of a word. But I don't understand the intellectual condescension towards people who are skeptical about a theory that claims to not only predict the future behavior of an entire planet's climate but also how much one element of the planet (humans) impacts the climate.

The condescension comes because of the quality of the arguments used. People who claim to be "skeptical" use fallacious arguments, misrepresent information and make general emotive points rather than pointing to scientific data and statistical interpretation.

For example, you make a point about predicting "the future behaviour of an entire planet's climate". But you could equally say that we should be skeptical of Newton's theory of gravity because it predicts the future physical movements of every atom of an entire planet. It was a specious point. You just said something that was true in a way that sounded impressive. You didn't even mention the models, let alone give any criticisms of the current state of climate model validation. You just made the target of the model sound complicated, without giving any detailed consideration of how complicated it actually is when taken in aggregate.

If you're going to criticise a science then use science to do it. The quality of the criticism has to be on a par with the interpretation it criticises. Otherwise it's clear you're arguing from ignorance. While it makes sense to be skeptical while ignorant, you can't expect people who aren't ignorant to take your views seriously.

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#56
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's all step away from the hype, politics, and hollywood portrayals to figure out what's really going on. Sure, but let's also enact policies that help make our societies and economies more robust to whatever that answer is. When there are time lags involved, you cannot wait for perfect information before you act.

let's also enact policies societies and economies more robust to whatever that answer is I agree completely with that. As a first step, I'd be happy if our federal government could somehow balance and claw the debt back to a point where we will have financial reserves against future challenges rather than our current extremely vulnerable position.

That's a truly impressive non-sequitur.

What policies would you suggest to prepare for the risk of catastrophic or highly damaging climate change?

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#57
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that deniers don't advance the science. They are just trolling, effectively obstructing the possible improvements. Please read the article for an example of a huge trolling action. The consensus just means that the different scientists can independently reproduce the similar results. You can do the calculations yourself too.

> The consensus just means that the different scientists can independently reproduce the similar results. You can do the calculations yourself too. But that's not how the 'consensus' is being used in argument. The way that advocates use it as a bludgeon: that because 99% of all climate scientists agree with anthropocentric climate change that any argument to the contrary is ludicrous and ought to be dismissed outrigh…

I hope you understand that trillions of dollars of capital have a major interest in finding errors in the science and still all they have't found anything significant all they effectively do is trolling, just like in the article?

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be a clear science argument if there weren't groups that are very motivated (money, power) to misdirect the public by making "doubts" for their own gains, as the article clearly illustrates. Definitely. There are groups willing to spend a lot of money to spread doubt about global warming. And, there are groups willing spend a lot of money to spread fear about global warming. > There is a practical scientif…

Have you actually read the article? It looks you haven't. It's about the deniers who obviously trolled everybody at the expense of the taxpayer's money not bringing any scientific improvement at all.

They brought about a great scientific improvement. At NIWA's site you can now see detailed accounting of the methodology behind the adjustments:

http://www.niwa.co.nz/our-science/climate/information-and-re...

That was put together in December 2010. Before that, they'd been handled in an ad-hoc manner. Some of the adjustments detailed in the literature, some no doubt scrawled on a piece of paper on some professor's desk or sitting in some fortran code on a 5 1/2 floppy. The thing about climate science is that it is done by academics, and if you've ever been in academia you'll know what I mean... If they want us to turn the modern economy inside-out, it is fair enough to ask for a little more rigour.

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#59
post #54
post #51

Global warming is one of those tough issues for me. I guess you could call me a skeptic, but I try very hard to be a thoughtful skeptic. What makes the whole conversation unproductive is there appears to be two sides: one which argues there is no problem and we must do nothing, and the other side says that the problem is going to end the world as we know it and we must change our entire way of living and make it our…

> ...but having worked in government I just don't see any practical way... Yeah, in the same way that scientists discovered that CFGs are eating away ozone layer, but the world's governments were too incompetent to meaningfully reduce CFG production, and now we end up with all the Penguins dying in Antarctica and people dying of skin cancer in New Zealand? Or in the same way scientists discovered sulfur emissions cau…

I think if you equate the difficulty of CFC reduction and sulfur reduction to the difficulty of reducing global CO2 emissions, then you're really not having a serious conversation. There's at least two orders of magnitude of difficulty between the two.

Re: An insider’s story of the global attack on climate science

#60
I'd take the climate scientists more seriously if they could offer a comprehensive theory on ice ages. As far as I can tell, over the past 250 years the best they've been able to come up with is 'multi-factor', which of course means they have candidates, but no winner.

That, for me, would be some real science -- not politically charged, not funding-driven, not in the pocket of a lobby or an industry and frankly fascinating. It kills me that there is this fatuous back and forth when the most interesting question of the the planets climate goes effectively unanswered.

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