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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

61–70 of 133 posts

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and any standard of evidence -- even reasonable suspicion -- can't be met without the existence of evidence. That's why its called a "standard of evidence". Again, if there is no evidence left by the "hitman" except the calls for which the warrant is sought, as specified in the hypothetical, than there can't be probable cause to support the warrant. There can't even be reasonable suspicion. In fact, without some…

Fair enough. However, if we take the original premise and change it to "If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no solid, non-circumstancial evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?", would you agree that wiretaps (with warrants) can be useful?

"would you agree that wiretaps (with warrants) can be useful?"

Nobody is arguing against that. What people are complaining about is, among other things, the bulk collection and retention of records; the gathering of records upto 3 degrees of separation from a suspect; etc.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#62
post #50

The whole "and should end" thing always makes me laugh. Oh, we just determined that violating the constitutional limitations on government is against the constitution, so we're going to stop violating the constitution, now. None of these idiots thought they were doing anything but violating the law for the past several decades. They just didn't care . And they still don't. And they won't. This big display right now i…

I disagree. American history is full of government actions that were later found unconstitutional and were abandoned and condemned. Think about slavery, women's voting rights, mistreatment of the Japanese during WWII, McCarthyism, segregation and the civil rights movement, and now finally marriage equality. These things unfortunately take longer than a few months to get shut down, but they do stop.

> but they do stop

Well..

* The NSA imbroglio resembles McCarthyism in some ways.

* Segregation and civil rights are still significant issues in some parts of the country; the battle has simply moved away from "offical" fights into more indirect fighting using tactics like "school vouchers" and "redlining".

* Muslims and people of Arab descent are mistreated rather badly at times.

* Women's suffrage hasn't been in question for a while now, but there are certainly a lot of attacks against women in recent politics with significant attacks against abortion rights and women's healthcare in general.

* We don't call it slavery, but the prison–industrial complex has a LOT to answer for, and is a growing problem.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#63
post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

> "As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do."

Do you get paid to write this stuff, or do you actually believe it? It is obvious that the NSA has been creatively interpreting the law to acquire more and more data on innocent citizens. This report says so. The President's panel said so too, albeit a little more politely.

> the NSA currently has the support of the people and the people's representatives... The issue is 50/50 at best among the people

Know what? Slavery had the support of the people. Segregation had the support of the people. Anti-miscegenation laws had support of the people. Opposition to gay marriage has the support of the people. When it comes to rights, it doesn't matter if the majority of the people support it or not; rights are rights.

And, by the way: members of Congress themselves have asked for help from the Snowden documents[1], because the NSA has not been truthful with them.

[1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/01/today_i_brief...

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. American history is full of government actions that were later found unconstitutional and were abandoned and condemned. Think about slavery, women's voting rights, mistreatment of the Japanese during WWII, McCarthyism, segregation and the civil rights movement, and now finally marriage equality. These things unfortunately take longer than a few months to get shut down, but they do stop.

> but they do stop Well.. * The NSA imbroglio resembles McCarthyism in some ways. * Segregation and civil rights are still significant issues in some parts of the country; the battle has simply moved away from "offical" fights into more indirect fighting using tactics like "school vouchers" and "redlining". * Muslims and people of Arab descent are mistreated rather badly at times. * Women's suffrage hasn't been in qu…

I am not saying that things are peachy. I agree with all of your examples. What I am saying is that less than a hundred years ago women could not vote and the official stance on that was that it's constitutional. Less than fifty years ago it was perfectly legal to pay women less than men just because they are women. It is now illegal.

The point is that things like what the NSA is doing are clearly illegal in my mind and I think 20 years from now our kids will look back and say "how did you let this happen?" but it will be made illegal. Will the spy agencies and over-reaching corporate entities continue trying to find a way to circumvent the new laws and the interpretations of the old laws? Absolutely. However, we will have made progress.

I guess this brings up the grand question: will we ever reach enlightenment enough to stop spying and oppressing our own citizens, denizens, visitors, and allies? I think it'll take a few centuries but yes. Eventually I think we will get there through lots of lessons learned the hard way.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#65
I guess I don't see how what the NSA is doing would not be unconstitutional and illegal. I don't care about the mechanics of how it's actually done but wiretapping requires probably cause and a warrant. Fishing expeditions are not legal. The fact that it's not listened to directly by a human but instead stored for later processing has nothing to do with the fact that it's wiretapping. Creating a secret court that is a rubber stamp of approval for broad warrants does not make it legal.

I actually wonder what would happen if the government was to prosecute someone where the only evidence they had was obtained via this illegal wiretap. Would the evidence gathered this way actually hold up. I know the point of this is not the due process but to detect terrorist plots, but the legal hypothetical is interesting.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and any standard of evidence -- even reasonable suspicion -- can't be met without the existence of evidence. That's why its called a "standard of evidence". Again, if there is no evidence left by the "hitman" except the calls for which the warrant is sought, as specified in the hypothetical, than there can't be probable cause to support the warrant. There can't even be reasonable suspicion. In fact, without some…

Fair enough. However, if we take the original premise and change it to "If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no solid, non-circumstancial evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?", would you agree that wiretaps (with warrants) can be useful?

Circumstantial evidence can be used for a conviction, so the absence of non-circumstantial evidence doesn't mean that there isn't evidence sufficient for a conviction.

And, even if the FBI could know that a hitman left a series of incriminating phone calls without already having evidence which could be admitted against the defendant of the content of those phone calls, a wiretap based on a warrant issued after the fact wouldn't recover those contents.

Further, I don't think anyone in the thread has argued that wiretaps aren't useful in criminal prosecution, the issue which started this was a poster expressing that it would be wonderful if wiretaps were categorically outlawed, which does not require believing that they aren't useful in certain circumstances. It could, for instance, proceed from the belief that the capacity is so likely to be abused covertly in circumstances where it is inappropriate if its existence is tolerated at all, that the usefulness it has in the circumstances to which it is appropriate is outweighed.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#67
post #50

The whole "and should end" thing always makes me laugh. Oh, we just determined that violating the constitutional limitations on government is against the constitution, so we're going to stop violating the constitution, now. None of these idiots thought they were doing anything but violating the law for the past several decades. They just didn't care . And they still don't. And they won't. This big display right now i…

I disagree. American history is full of government actions that were later found unconstitutional and were abandoned and condemned. Think about slavery, women's voting rights, mistreatment of the Japanese during WWII, McCarthyism, segregation and the civil rights movement, and now finally marriage equality. These things unfortunately take longer than a few months to get shut down, but they do stop.

You could not hide slavery, a woman's inability to vote, internment camps, segregation, or any of these other things.

Spying on your own people, however, is something that has always been hidden in this country except the times it has arisen to the public eye (think of the communism-witch-hunts of American citizens by the government and fellow citizens).

... only to retreat and be hidden again and forgotten again.

At best, these people believe it is an obligated imperative to spy on our own citizens in order to keep them safe after the sickening mandate congress and the American public gave them weeks after 9/11 and ever since. "They are scared and they demand their government protect them, so we are going to protect them, even if it means violating everything we stand for".

At worst, they believe they need to control the public for their own benefit. Be that to accommodate lazy police work and law-enforcement work or to facilitate further abuse of the public at large by politicians and aristocrats. My vote is for a little bit of "at best" for the more naive and less involved politicians and "at worst" for those further to the inside. After all, there is nothing about spying on lovers, potential love interests, collecting dirt and blackmailing and threatening journalists, activists, and fellow politicians that is anything but vile and self-serving. Oh, and don't forget its primary use - not as a terror-prevention, but as a tool to protect American "economic interests" (if you recall the speech a few months ago, he listed "terrorism" as the last concern, after protecting our energy supply and then economic interest).

So I lean toward the more malevolent intent.

Either way, they will continue with this mindset and the only thing anyone will accomplish is some public dressing-down of certain scape-goats while the whole spying machine retreats back into the dark and continues to operate in silence.

Quite simply, none of us will ever know if they have actually stopped or not. Even if they do. Which they won't. They are above the law. Our only possible recourse is the widespread utilization of security measures that we must find a way to turn into common-practice. To the point that your great-grandmother wouldn't even think of sending a birthday card to little Billy without encrypting it.

Even that requires some degree of faith that the unlimited spending machine of the US Government (or the combined governments of Five Eyes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement), etc) haven't compromised its security. And assuming that utilization of such measures aren't simply outlawed (not an irrational concern, given that such security measures are -- or were a decade ago -- disallowed from inclusion in software for international distribution due to classification as a munition).

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#68

I guess I don't see how what the NSA is doing would not be unconstitutional and illegal. I don't care about the mechanics of how it's actually done but wiretapping requires probably cause and a warrant. Fishing expeditions are not legal. The fact that it's not listened to directly by a human but instead stored for later processing has nothing to do with the fact that it's wiretapping. Creating a secret court that is…

When they have evidence collected from these sources, they basically pretend it's from other sources. See "parallel construction."

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#69
post #6
post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…

several terrorists that could have been caught slipped by.

To what effect? Was it really that big a deal?

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be wonderful if all wiretaps were ruled illegal. It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties.

What's the problem with wiretaps, as long as you have actual independent judicial oversight? I don't have an issue with cops listening to cartel hitmen. Considering everybody as a suspect, that's entirely different. > It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties. I see that now. "Hello, Don Corleone, I'm an undercov…

There wouldn't be cartel hitmen if the thing wasn't illegal and hence profitable.

I have an issue with letting them listen--especially if I'm on the other end of the phone, for example, taking their order for pizza or arranging a playdate for my kids or something. It's the few-hops-away rule that is very easily justifiable that creates surveillance states.

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