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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#41

Post by mercurial »

dragonwriter wrote: post #35
mercurial wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. > Probable cause is based on evidence. From wikipedia, "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. In other word, you can get a warrant when you don't have enough evidence to secure a conviction, which in turn may lead to gather sufficient proof of guilt (or e…

Yes, and any standard of evidence -- even reasonable suspicion -- can't be met without the existence of evidence. That's why its called a "standard of evidence". Again, if there is no evidence left by the "hitman" except the calls for which the warrant is sought, as specified in the hypothetical, than there can't be probable cause to support the warrant. There can't even be reasonable suspicion. In fact, without some…

Fair enough. However, if we take the original premise and change it to "If the FBI identified an organized crime hitman who killed 20+ people and left no solid, non-circumstancial evidence other than making incriminating phone calls, is it wrong for them to place a tap on his phone line once they have probable cause that he is a hitman?", would you agree that wiretaps (with warrants) can be useful?

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#42

Post by higherpurpose »

I really want all of this to go through the Supreme Court before Congress decides either way on it, because I worry they will pass some laws that make this only slightly less awful, but at the same time make all current lawsuits irrelevant.

If there's one lawsuit say regarding the Patriot Act, and the Patriot Act get repealed and then replaced with something else in the meantime, does the lawsuit still continue, for example?

But even if it does, and let's say it says it's completely unconstitutional and whatnot, that still wouldn't apple to the "new law" that is slightly less awful, would it? It would require a new lawsuit against those specific provisions, right?

So this is what I'm worried about, and why I'd prefer all this goes through the Supreme Court before Congress starts passing new surveillance laws, because then they'd have a much lower chance of passing something that's already been declared unconstitutional in a new law.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#43

Post by amirmc »

codex wrote: post #8
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.

You don't know that. There may be many but due to parallel construction, the source of investigations is obfuscated.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#44

Post by Shivetya »

sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Well, yes.

Think about it. Your doing what your told over and over is good for the country. You really don't understand all the ins and outs but suddenly what you have putting all your effort into is declared criminal by some. If your a mid/low level worker how are you supposed to feel? Brush it off and blame those above you? Hang your head in shame? There certainly are enough people out there; if not posting here; who would excoriate you for not knowing what any one one with a brain should have known/etc/etc

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#45

Post by adventured »

codex wrote: post #8
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

They're not committing crimes against the American people. Not one American has been found who has been demonstrably harmed by any NSA program. Without harm, there no criminal act. That said, something can be unlawful without being criminal.

Fortunately you're wrong. Violating my constitutionally guaranteed liberties is the harm in fact.

Eroding the protections I'm guaranteed, for example against general search warrants, is causing me immediate harm.

What is the harm? Something that belongs to me has been taken from me against my will, through the use of coercion, intimidation and force.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#46

Post by mgkimsal »

hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

"If 80% of the country hated the law that allows blanket collection of business records then it would have been changed long ago."

Even if people hated some laws like they, they can get passed by putting something else in the law like "anti child porn" language, and call the bill "protect the children from abuse act", which just happens to have language permitting unrestricted data monitoring provisions. Try to vote against that bill? You're in favor of child abuse?

Over the top example, slightly, but even in this case, it presumes that people even read the bills before voting on them, which we all know doesn't happen as often as it should. Trying to get past that problem requires a far more educated and engaged population.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#47

Post by rayiner »

sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Constitutional violations aren't "crimes." E.g. Nobody went to jail for attempting to enforce the unconstitutional election law in citizens united.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#48

Post by aragot »

Shivetya wrote: post #44
sigil wrote: post #3

Brand also worried that declaring that counterterrorism officials “have been operating this program unlawfully for years” could damage morale and make agencies overly cautious in taking steps to protect the country. It's great to have another voice speaking up against mass surveillance. Still -- you're telling me these agencies are in all likelihood committing crimes against the American people, but we need to be car…

Well, yes. Think about it. Your doing what your told over and over is good for the country. You really don't understand all the ins and outs but suddenly what you have putting all your effort into is declared criminal by some. If your a mid/low level worker how are you supposed to feel? Brush it off and blame those above you? Hang your head in shame? There certainly are enough people out there; if not posting here; w…

This is what happens for all wars after reddition: Suddently all local soldiers who did lawful things can be charged for having done illegal crimes. Humans are responsible for their actions, perhaps in the limit of the constraints they were held under. Blame the US for using the vocabulary "war on terrorism" and the NSA for being a military branch. If power turns over and it is deemed illegal, there can be a mixed between penalty and pardon for those involved until the country heals.

The upside is, it's most probably democracy which is winning today.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#49

Post by revelation »

hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

Can we stop with the nonsense "they have comitted no crimes" line? They have violated orders by FISC and overstepped their boundaries in many cases before the FISC, then lied to it.

So of course they comitted crimes, it's just that the punishment (or due process) is nonexistant.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#50

Post by pstack »

The whole "and should end" thing always makes me laugh. Oh, we just determined that violating the constitutional limitations on government is against the constitution, so we're going to stop violating the constitution, now.

None of these idiots thought they were doing anything but violating the law for the past several decades. They just didn't care. And they still don't. And they won't. This big display right now is nothing but that - a display. At most, they'll throw out some "oh, gosh, we will put in regulations or stop it all together"... while they continue to do exactly as they please behind the scenes.

There is no return from this. It is done.

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