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Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

nytimes.com

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Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#31

Post by dragonwriter »

mercurial wrote: post #27
hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

> The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. From the article, quoting the report: The program “lacks a viable legal foundation…

> Now, you could mention that two out of the five representatives disagree with the idea that the program is illegal. That would be fair enough.

Not based on the article, which said they rejected the majority's conclusion that the program was illegal because they believed that legality should have been left to the courts and not addressed by the board, which does not mean that they disagreed with the board's assessment on legality. (I'd argue that it suggests, but does not mean, that they did not like the fact that the board reached the conclusion, but even then could not actually argue against it.)

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#32

Post by mercurial »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #10
gareim wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it makes sense that she'd say that since she's one of the two that rejected that the program is illegal. I've been reading Tim Weiner's Enemies, a history of the FBI and one thing stuck with me. That was that there was a period of time when the FBI was incredibly useless because of a previous Supreme Court ruling that wiretapping was illegal and then FBI agents all began to misunderstand what they could and cou…

It would be wonderful if all wiretaps were ruled illegal. It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties.

What's the problem with wiretaps, as long as you have actual independent judicial oversight? I don't have an issue with cops listening to cartel hitmen. Considering everybody as a suspect, that's entirely different.

> It would also be wonderful if all law enforcement officers were required to wear uniforms or identify themselves when in the course of their duties.

I see that now. "Hello, Don Corleone, I'm an undercover police officer, but please pretend you don't see my uniform".

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#33

Post by dantheman »

hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

Here's one way they've broke the law: Parallel Construction https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/dea-and-nsa-team-intel...

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#34

Post by mercurial »

dragonwriter wrote: post #24
gareim wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. His hypothetical is actually how warrants are supposed to work. Law enforcement have probable cause to suspect someone of being guilty. If they can make a strong argument about why the person is probably guilty, they then get a warrant to search for evidence in homes, phone calls, emails, whatever. His hypothetical literally described the standard for getting a wa…

> No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. Probable cause is based on evidence. > His hypothetical is actually how warrants are supposed to work. No, its not. > Law enforcement have probable cause to suspect someone of being guilty. If they can make a strong argument about why the person is probably guilty, they then get a warrant to search for evidence in homes, phone calls, emails, whatever. And that "…

>> No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence.

> Probable cause is based on evidence.

From wikipedia, "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction.

In other word, you can get a warrant when you don't have enough evidence to secure a conviction, which in turn may lead to gather sufficient proof of guilt (or exonerate the suspect, I suppose).

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#35

Post by dragonwriter »

mercurial wrote: post #34
dragonwriter wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. Probable cause is based on evidence. > His hypothetical is actually how warrants are supposed to work. No, its not. > Law enforcement have probable cause to suspect someone of being guilty. If they can make a strong argument about why the person is probably guilty, they then get a warrant to search for evidence in homes, phone calls, emails, whatever. And that "…

>> No, probable cause is not the same thing as evidence. > Probable cause is based on evidence. From wikipedia, "Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. In other word, you can get a warrant when you don't have enough evidence to secure a conviction, which in turn may lead to gather sufficient proof of guilt (or e…

Yes, and any standard of evidence -- even reasonable suspicion -- can't be met without the existence of evidence. That's why its called a "standard of evidence".

Again, if there is no evidence left by the "hitman" except the calls for which the warrant is sought, as specified in the hypothetical, than there can't be probable cause to support the warrant. There can't even be reasonable suspicion. In fact, without some kind of evidence, the only thing that could support the desire to seek the wiretap is arbitrary prejudice.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#36

Post by euank »

kordless wrote: post #14

I'm OK if they want to look at my data. I just want to know who and when they look at it and how much they are going to pay me for it. 1,000 Bitcoin gets you everything I have data-wise.

I think this deal is poorly thought out since, coincidentally, all of your bitcoin wallets are in fact data. I'll happily pay whatever sum of BTC into a wallet in exchange for that wallet + some more data. Nothing but gain.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#37

Post by mercurial »

dragonwriter wrote: post #31
mercurial wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. From the article, quoting the report: The program “lacks a viable legal foundation…

> Now, you could mention that two out of the five representatives disagree with the idea that the program is illegal. That would be fair enough. Not based on the article, which said they rejected the majority's conclusion that the program was illegal because they believed that legality should have been left to the courts and not addressed by the board, which does not mean that they disagreed with the board's assessme…

It suggests strongly that Ms. Brand disagreed:

Ms. Brand wrote that while the legal question was “difficult,” the government’s legal theory was “at least a reasonable reading, made in good faith by numerous officials in two administrations of different parties.”

But alright, you win this one.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#38

Post by dragonwriter »

gareim wrote: post #26
hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

>It's also important to note that the NSA currently has the support of the people and the people's representatives. If 80% of the country hated the law that allows blanket collection of business records then it would have been changed long ago. That's ingenious. We didn't know about these secret courts. We didn't know the extent to which we were being spied on. The extent to which laws were being manipulated. Obama's…

> That's ingenious.

Well, no, its just false. The NSA surveillance is overwhelmingly opposed by the public, but...

> We didn't know about these secret courts.

There was nothing secret about the fact of the existence of the courts are what their job was, they were an overt part of the system from the original adoption of FISA.

They aren't "secret courts" whose existence was concealed, they are courts whose proceedings are secret.

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#39

Post by coldtea »

hooande wrote: post #23

The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do. This watchdog report is saying that the law is not in the interest of the people and it should be changed. But until that happens, the NSA is in the right to continue with business as usual. Our constitution prohibits ex post facto law. This means that someone can't be charge…

>The NSA has committed no crimes. As an organization, they've acted within the bounds of the law and done exactly what they were supposed to do.

Even if the "acted within the bounds of the law" that would be no better than saying "the SS committed no crimes". They too, after all, acted within the bounds of the law at the time. The law is not some holy scripture, it can be criminal in itself, especially if crooks like G.W. Bush and co help create it.

But even that's not true. The NSA broke surveillance and privacy laws thousands (if not millions of times), and even had personel lie to the Congress. That's as bad as you can get.

And they pissed all over international laws and agreements (somehow Americans forget those also exist).

Re: Watchdog Report Says N.S.A. Program Is Illegal and Should End

#40

Post by dchichkov »

ewoodrich wrote: post #12
dchichkov wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

How was Snowden harmed by an NSA program? He's admitted to committing a federal offense and therefore cannot return to the US or countries with an extradition treaty without appearing in federal court. That's pretty "standard" judicial proceedings, no need for NSA powers.

If not for NSA program Snowden would very likely still be living happily and productively, with his family, here in the US.
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