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Why Bitcoin Matters

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Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#151

Post by lectrick »

interstitial wrote: post #116
ye wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does dollar have an intrinsic value? Actually, can you even define "intrinsic value" without going in circles or defining it simply as current value?

The dollar's value comes from the barrel of gun. I thought that was plain enough. Bitcoins not so much.

> I thought that was plain enough.

All that barrel does is stop counterfeiters and tax evaders. Neither of those things are "intrinsic value". And Bitcoin is FAR more difficult to duplicate (you can't even forge or counterfeit it, you have to "double spend" it in a tricky operation requiring owning at least 50% of the network, good luck with that) than any other currency.

Read this: http://bitcoinsurvey.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/what-is-the-re...

Basically, a currency cannot drop to zero value unless ALL trade in it stops. If you think about it, this makes sense. So that is its "intrinsic value". The trade volume props up this minimum. There is of course "speculative value" laid on top of that, but where one stops and the other begins is anybody's guess.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#152

Post by oafitupa »

asciimo wrote: post #121

I'm a Bitcoin believer but I feel a little embarrassed after reading this. I'm impressed that Marc Andreessen can get an entire Dealbook page to advertise a pet technology without any fact checking. (Is that the point of Dealbook? I almost never read it.) > Even Netflix, a completely virtual service, is only available in about 40 countries. The implication is that mere payment logistics are inhibiting Netflix's inter…

> What about copyright and regional distribution restrictions?

Sounds like the kind of problems centralized services always run into.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#154

Post by drcode »

[deleted] wrote: post #140
drcode wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you'd either have to convert part of it to fiat for taxes, or carry a currency risk and pay the taxes separately (as I do.) In the future, you'll probably be able to pay your expenses in bitcoin and then the issue becomes moot (you use your bitcoin earnings for expenses and your fiat earnings for taxes.)

[deleted]

OF COURSE you owe taxes every time you realize a gain. I pay taxes on every bitcoin I earn, including any I use to pay for expenses. Nothing I wrote implies that you don't have to pay taxes on all money earned with bitcoins.

However, just because you earn money with bitcoin doesn't mean you can't pay for the taxes on those bitcoins with money you earned in fiat.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#155

Post by hendzen »

sigil wrote: post #136
hendzen wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a correct definition of BFT, but as I said, Paxos does not tolerate Byzantine faults. Here's a direct quote [0] from Leslie Lamport, the author of the Paxos algorithm. Assume that agents can communicate with one another by sending messages. We use the customary asynchronous, non-Byzantine model, in which: • Agents operate at arbitrary speed, may fail by stopping, and may restart. Since all agents may fail aft…

I referred in the top level comment above to Byzantine Paxos, a modified version of Paxos that is BFT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paxos_(computer_science)#Byzant...

Ah - when the term Paxos is used it is usually in reference to the original, non-BFT algorithm. Also, Google's implementations of Paxos (in Chubby, as well as Megastore) are non-BFT, and I am not aware of any use of Byzantine Paxos in production elsewhere.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#156

Post by reqres »

base698 wrote: post #147
nether wrote: post #128

Remember when everyone said bitcoin was doomed because it's deflationary?

That's only people that read the 101 level of how the economy works and don't consider that bitcoin is infinitely divisible practically, unlike gold.

Unless you're saying that you can split 1 bitcoin into 2 bitcoins, I think your reasoning is flawed.

Or looking at it another way, inventing a new denomination like a millicent (= 0.001c) will automatically increase our money supply...

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#157

Post by mr_luc »

wmf wrote: post #83
mr_luc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. An 'unfair competition' lawsuit by someone with a nominally competing payment product ('FaceCash') ... After reading your CrunchBase profile, where I saw that you have your own competing product, and looking at the list of defendants in that lawsuit, may I just say that while I don't bear you any ill will (and in fact I wish you well), I don't hope that you win this. That doesn't mean much since I base that opin…

I don't support thinkcomp's lawsuit for various reasons, but... Sure, if BitCoin didn't exist, you'd have to do a lot of things yourself that the BitCoin network now makes trivial. But why should those companies be forced by law to pretend that BitCoin and its network don't exist? And don't have the properties that they have? I don't think this is a good interpretation of the situation. Bitcoin does not natively prov…

1. I think that there are anti-money-laundering regulations that don't require $20m in bonds, like the know-your-customer laws that many exchanges are complying with.

2. Many people want consumer protections, but they'd probably, if asked, 'want' it for cash as well. And in fact, they do have them -- customer service, anti-fraud laws and criminal prosecution, small claims court and lawsuits. Those protections are necessary to, essentially, protect the consumer from the money transmitter. But in this case, the Bitcoin network exists, and provides a novel invention of something that can, through the use of keys and such, be transferred every bit as irrevocably as handing cash from one person to another -- and provide an excellent, public 'paper trail', which can act as proof of purchase/payment, as well.

So my point is, the world has changed, and it's very, very good that the old-world regulations aren't yet completely crushing that change.

Cash++ springs into being, and companies are being formed to add a user-friendly skin on top of this amazing Cash++ network, but endangered existing players want to make the barrier to entry for any company that taps into Cash++ be the onerous, $20mm bonds required of traditional money transmitters.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#158

Post by ye »

plock wrote: post #133
ye wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the dollar has intrinsic value in that it is backed by freedom from being prosecuted by the US government for non-payment of taxes Do you realize how little sense you're making? It's like you wanted to insert meaningless buzzwords like "freedom", not to mention that there's no freedom from being prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. Well, in that case Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it's backed by the freedom of s…

>not to mention that there's no freedom from being prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. What? If I pay my taxes, I won't be prosecuted for non-payment of taxes. >in that case Bitcoin's intrinsic value is that it's backed by the freedom of storage Storage of what? >transfer, It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other…

First of all, I can pay taxes in Bitcoin. There's a company that handles it for me.

Second of all, your dollar's "intrinsic value" being an American criminal law makes zero sense. It's geography-specific. Suddenly if I'm not from US, that "intrinsic value" disappears. So much for that dumb definition.

> It doesn't matter how easy it is to transfer something to someone else if they don't want it. That thing must be seen as valuable for some other reason for anyone to care how easily it can be transferred

There are multibillion global transportation industries out there, and they don't care what they transport (as long as it's legal). People pay them because they provide ease of transportation at a reasonable price per pound.

I'd say ease of transportation is much more valuable to the majority of the world than some "freedom from prosecution" by some government that can't touch them.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#159

Post by lectrick »

atmosx wrote: post #102
toomim wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, this over complicated process involves a lot > more banking activity than credit cards! No, it's still FAR less banking activity than credit cards. You have no idea what happens behind the scenes when you swipe! Go watch this 11-minute Khan Academy video to see how much banking activity goes on behind the scenes when you swipe your card: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPxQQNyCxas Bitcoin isn't free…

> Bitcoin isn't free, but it's far, far, cheaper than credit cards, and gives far less money to banks. You're not listening : BitCoin is WAY more EXPENSIVE than a credit card TODAY. * People know how credit cards work * Everybody accepts credit cards You are comparing a payment medium with an asset/currency/payment-method/protocol. It's not a fair comparison (for BTC) because it's a really awesome technology which co…

Kids can't use credit cards online, but they can use Bitcoins.

Third world folks with cellphones can't use credit cards (and likely don't have banks)... but they can use Bitcoins.

The uncredited can't use credit cards... you know the drill.

Re: Why Bitcoin Matters

#160

Post by lukifer »

kolev wrote: post #64
ye wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you described pretty much the worst case scenario where everything goes through fiat. But once Bitcoin penetration is significant and people start getting paid in Bitcoin (already happening) and accept it as payment (also already happening), all these exchange fees go away. With fiat you're stuck with the fees forever. Also your 0.5% assumption is wrong. You can place a buy ad on LocalBitcoins and actually buy…

LocalBitcoins.com is one of the most expensive places to acquire (only small quantities of) bitcoins... and the riskiest.

Risky how? If you meet in a public place and use cash + escrow, it's as safe as a trip to Walmart.
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