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Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

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Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#191
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure whether your first sentence is meant as snide, but given the quality of your posts on gender issues in general I'll assume you're just taking the opportunity to elucidate the logic behind both viewpoints. I do have to say that as a person somewhere on the trans* spectrum some of those posts do feel rather hateful towards 'my kind' though.

You specifically posted links equating radical feminist concerns with queer theory/transactivism with "transphobia," cheapening real transphobia, given that the links I posted (have you read them? I recommend them) illustrate that "radical feminist" desired exclusion of transwomen from conferences, etc, is not motivated by hatred, but a gender politics that doesn't have much to do with queer theory/transactivism spec…

I simply shared two wikipedia articles on the topic to refer to a somewhat impartial source and added an article which illustrated the existence of a transphobic fringe within the feminist community.

I didn't intend to make any statement concerning exclusion or condemnation of transwomen from conferences; although it seems like you did jump to that conclusion. Neither did I explicitly mention 'radical feminism.'

As for feedback; the part that's hurtful here is that while the article I posted seems to take great care to attempt to perform a level-headed in-depth deconstruction of transphobia in the feminist community and painstakingly ensuring to criticise specific behaviour by specific people rather than the feminist community as a whole.

Many of the articles you linked invoke a variety of ad-hominems, strawmen and generally mostly seem aimed at eliciting a certain emotional response towards the trans community.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated from a feminist-oriented humanities department where I engaged with these issues critically for a long time. Rather than linking me polemics from 1988 that don't address my point, consider that I disagree with the fundamental positions on a logical basis. If you'd like to engage the points I actually made in my post, feel free.

I highly doubt you engaged these issues critically if you seriously don't believe that most institutional structures are dominated by men. Great, student bodies have slightly more women than men. However the vast majority of professors, researchers, and administrators are men. It's the positions of power being dominated by men that makes the institution for men. Much like the positions of power in politics and busine…

I didn't say that most institutional structures aren't dominated by men. I don't know whether "most" are or aren't -- neither do you. If you figure out a way to quantify that, let me know. Seems like a research grant in the making.

I do know, however, that "every other organization is a men's organization" is a ridiculous statement. Every other organization? Seriously? In order for that to be true, "men's organization" has to be defined in some absolutely meaningless manner where organizations which include women and have women as administrators and are run by women are somehow oppressive "men's organizations". Otherwise the statement is provably false and anyone caught saying it should be instantly discredited.

>It's the positions of power being dominated by men that makes the institution for men

First off, very few men have access to those positions of power. Men who don't have access to powerful offices still have issues and need protection. If you weren't born rich and to parents with connections, you likely aren't becoming a surgeon general or president or even university president. So in what universe can the entire university be termed a "men's club"? Where do the men without access to institutional power turn for relief? They are not only excluded from what feminists term the "men's club", feminists fight to disallow them from forming groups to fight for their own interests. Double whammy. Lower-class men get universally screwed over in the blind drive to bring "equality" to positions of power.

Second, much of feminism ignores the question of why one-to-one gender representation is desirable in the first place for each and every position of power. Why is it a goal in and of itself? In hiring someone to lead an organization, I want the person with the qualifications that best match the job description to be hired. If that turns out to be a man, great. A woman, great. I don't care. There is a job that needs to be done and it should be done well, free from political or ideological influence.

There is the argument that even if hiring is completely gender-neutral, if the most qualified people turn out disproportionally men then it is inevitable that male interests will be baked into the system. Well, the man is still the most objectively skilled person for the job maybe you should figure out how to build control mechanisms that prevent male ideologies from perpetuating insidious effects throughout the system, rather than just scream about how men should be barred from the position. Just saying "let's hire more women because they're women" seems like the laziest possible pseudo-solution and doesn't seem to lead to desirable long-term effects. Do we want people running our society who are qualified to do so, or do we want people running society because of gender quotas?

Third, there is the question of whether or not these inequalities are systemic because of male oppression or female behavior. It is likely a mix of the two, but feminists completely discount the latter. For example having children is a pretty strong biological drive in human beings. I'm not saying all women want to have children, but a lot do. So maybe some females aren't taking high-powered high-strung positions because they'd rather have kids. The vast majority of high-responsibility positions can't cope with the candidate taking 5 months off for mat leave.

There's the issue of "oh the females only want kids because they're socially programmed to slave away as subservient housewives". I don't know, the nuclear family is a pretty strong element of culture and socialization for sure. But it seems unlikely that given our million-plus-year history of a biological drive to have kids that it's all a social construct. Further, that females only have kids because they're brainwashed seems unprovable.

There are innumerable other issues I could list but what's common to all of them, in my view, is that they focus so intently on the end goal of elevating women's power status that they bulldoze over all other considerations indiscriminately.

We need nuance in order to achieve an actual egalitarian society, which much of feminism -- especially statements like "all other organizations are men's organizations" -- beats into the ground with a thousand-pound shovel.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#193
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You specifically posted links equating radical feminist concerns with queer theory/transactivism with "transphobia," cheapening real transphobia, given that the links I posted (have you read them? I recommend them) illustrate that "radical feminist" desired exclusion of transwomen from conferences, etc, is not motivated by hatred, but a gender politics that doesn't have much to do with queer theory/transactivism spec…

I simply shared two wikipedia articles on the topic to refer to a somewhat impartial source and added an article which illustrated the existence of a transphobic fringe within the feminist community. I didn't intend to make any statement concerning exclusion or condemnation of transwomen from conferences; although it seems like you did jump to that conclusion. Neither did I explicitly mention 'radical feminism.' As f…

Actual transphobia (like the rampant homophobia, specifically against lesbians, before it) in "feminist" communities is tragic, just as it is anywhere. I don't mean to excuse bigots, only to provide context for the discussion of the political exclusion of (rather than emotional, bigoted marginalization and violence against) transwomen from women-only spaces, which is the overall topic at hand here and the concern of many radical feminists.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#194
post #30

I'm assuming some HNers are soon to arrive saying things like "why does it matter that a founder is a female?", "why make an excluding event? isn't it sexism all the same", "imagine if someone make a 'male founders conference'?" I would like to ask you to think for a moment, before raising this concerns (I am not bothering here to debate with haters, only with those who are genuinely concerned that this might sexism…

Did anyone stop to think that woman generally just have differing interests and natural skills than men? Why is there so much emphasis on women being the same as men in everything? I don't see campaigns to get more women interested in auto repair or plumbing.

Exactly.

Nor any campaigns for unisex sports teams.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt you engaged these issues critically if you seriously don't believe that most institutional structures are dominated by men. Great, student bodies have slightly more women than men. However the vast majority of professors, researchers, and administrators are men. It's the positions of power being dominated by men that makes the institution for men. Much like the positions of power in politics and busine…

I didn't say that most institutional structures aren't dominated by men. I don't know whether "most" are or aren't -- neither do you. If you figure out a way to quantify that, let me know. Seems like a research grant in the making. I do know, however, that "every other organization is a men's organization" is a ridiculous statement. Every other organization ? Seriously? In order for that to be true, "men's organizati…

"much of feminism ignores the question of why one-to-one gender representation is desirable in the first place" - I agree, the mainstream meme of "equality" betrays a liberalism about much of "mainstream feminism," when radicalism [0] seems much more internally consistent.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXrS0NnQM0

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#196
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no mention of males involved or invited to come anywhere else, so I'm going to believe that drop down exists to send a "thanks for your support" or is simply an oversight. I don't have a moral problem with gender exclusive events. It's sexist and exclusionary and that's ok, and I hope the ladies putting on the event feel the same.

Did you read the thread where people running the event have said that males can apply, but that females are goven priority?

YC have jumped the shark and landed into an ocean of political correctness.

The conference is called "FEMALE" Founders Conference, yet males can apply?

Utter lunacy.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be willing to do me a favor and take the implicit association test on gender at https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit and post back the results? I really think that it's the best answer I can give to someone like you who would want a bit of deeper understanding into what this is all about ...

"Your data suggest little or no association between Female and Male with Science and Liberal Arts." I tried the Gender-Career one and got the same result. I guess i'm abnormal?

Not at all. The world could just use more people like you then! ;)

I personally got a 'weak correlation between Male and Science and Female and Liberal Arts' even though I care deeply about gender issues.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt you engaged these issues critically if you seriously don't believe that most institutional structures are dominated by men. Great, student bodies have slightly more women than men. However the vast majority of professors, researchers, and administrators are men. It's the positions of power being dominated by men that makes the institution for men. Much like the positions of power in politics and busine…

I didn't say that most institutional structures aren't dominated by men. I don't know whether "most" are or aren't -- neither do you. If you figure out a way to quantify that, let me know. Seems like a research grant in the making. I do know, however, that "every other organization is a men's organization" is a ridiculous statement. Every other organization ? Seriously? In order for that to be true, "men's organizati…

So your issue with feminism is essentially that it's wrong for a women's movement to pursue women's issues?

Nothing about feminism is orthogonal to addressing the needs of men. In fact there is a lot of feminist theory exploring pretty much every single issue you listed, and if you did actually engage the issue critically you'd probably know that.

Re: Announcing the Female Founders Conference (March 1)

#200
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply shared two wikipedia articles on the topic to refer to a somewhat impartial source and added an article which illustrated the existence of a transphobic fringe within the feminist community. I didn't intend to make any statement concerning exclusion or condemnation of transwomen from conferences; although it seems like you did jump to that conclusion. Neither did I explicitly mention 'radical feminism.' As f…

Actual transphobia (like the rampant homophobia, specifically against lesbians, before it) in "feminist" communities is tragic, just as it is anywhere. I don't mean to excuse bigots, only to provide context for the discussion of the political exclusion of (rather than emotional, bigoted marginalization and violence against) transwomen from women-only spaces, which is the overall topic at hand here and the concern of…

As I suspected we're mostly on the same page then with the main difference being (if I'm correct) that I interpreted radical feminists as the subset of feminists who hold radical beliefs rather than referring to a specific 'radical feminist' belief system and its views on trans* issues (whose existence I was not aware of until now.)
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