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2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

annualletter.gatesfoundation.org

81–90 of 317 posts

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#81
post #9
post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

Sustainability means keeping the population at a consistent level. Otherwise, exponential growth means that the planet is eventually covered in humans to a depth of 50ft, and nobody wants that. There are only two ways to accomplish this: having fewer children, or killing more people. The latter is what has historically dominated, but we've become so much better at keeping people alive in the last couple of centuries…

Please, for the love of god, stop with fearmongering about overpopulation already. It's pure nonsense.

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#growthrate

"The latest United Nations projections indicate that world population will nearly stabilize at just above 10 billion persons after 2062." [1]

Also recommended: The documentary "Population Boom" by Werner Boote [2][3]

[1] http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Documentation/publications.htm

[2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3107706/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

[3] (German) http://www.populationboom.at/

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#82
post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

I'll bite. I believed it. Not only did I believe it until I read this letter, I thought Gates Foundation was doing an unintentional long-term disservice to the world by saving so many lives that overpopulation in the remote parts of the world will lead to more suffering due to starvation/hunger, poverty, and depression.

If X% of children in villages in Ghana are currently starving, how will raising that to 2X% starving-but-inoculated children help the world? I was never able to get that question answered sufficiently well. My background is in Econ and Comp Sci so I have a pretty good understanding of the impact of foreign aid. For the past decade, I've preferred the aid to be technological and infrastructural in nature instead of medical because I presumed that addressing the health needs of the existing population was merely plugging a hole on a broken dyke.

I really don't think she was calling me a baby-killer but rather questioning my faulty assumptions. I had made the same mistake that many others make when looking beyond their own monkey circles - that even people with little education make rational decisions about their lives, they're not mindless machines pushing out kids because that's what tradition or society demands. I never considered that the mothers in Ghana would have fewer children if earlier ones survived.

I assumed that because they are poor, did not have access to birth control, and were trying to maximize their long-term happiness, they would have as many kids as possible to maximize the chances of at least a few of them becoming successful. If you have two kids, both might be unemployed. If you have 12, maybe two of them will get good jobs and take care of you in the future. While this is great for the mother if two kids are successful, the other ten will end up repeating what she did and the cycle will continue ten-fold. I honestly believed that malaria was nature's way of minimizing long-term suffering.

There were too many faults in my assumption and I believed each of the myths up to a certain extent. My beliefs were not necessarily baseless, they were just completely out of date. I have a very hard time believing UN reports because of politics, corruption, and self-preservation interests of bureaucracy. However, I see no reason to assume Gates Foundation having any malevolence, especially since they're literally giving away their own money to improve the world long-term. So when they said my assumptions are in fact myths, I allowed them the chance to change my mind and by the end of the letter, I was cursing at myself for being so thick and wrong.

In addition to EFF, Wikipedia Foundation, and other tech causes, my future donations will also go to health/medical causes thanks to this single letter.

EDIT: If you want to know what REALLY blew me away, it was the single comparison shot of Mexico City 1986 vs 2011. My cousins in Mumbai grew up in the slums and now they post photos of their new [car|clothes|apartments] on Facebook. They were the kids bathing on the street and they weren't alone. Almost all of their friends are now working for multinationals in Delhi or Mumbai and most of them are doing better than their parents. An entire generation of slum-dwelling children have their own bathrooms, kitchens, and access to unlimited knowledge, technology, and medicine. I assumed that more people meant more slums. I did not realize that it could be fewer slums and more apartments.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#83
post #81
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sustainability means keeping the population at a consistent level. Otherwise, exponential growth means that the planet is eventually covered in humans to a depth of 50ft, and nobody wants that. There are only two ways to accomplish this: having fewer children, or killing more people. The latter is what has historically dominated, but we've become so much better at keeping people alive in the last couple of centuries…

Please, for the love of god, stop with fearmongering about overpopulation already. It's pure nonsense. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#growthrate "The latest United Nations projections indicate that world population will nearly stabilize at just above 10 billion persons after 2062." [1] Also recommended: The documentary "Population Boom" by Werner Boote [2][3] [1] http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Documentati…

Could you please point out what part of that supports the idea that a leveling off of the population would be possible without contraceptives?

Both of the replies I've received so far appear to completely misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the population will grow without limit no matter what. I'm saying that contraceptives are vital to avoiding that. Which is not at all contradicted by the fact that our world appears to be headed for zero population growth, because our world contains readily available contraceptives.

Do people not read, or what?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#84
post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population..."

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. That's because access to contraceptives has been shown to provide a wide range of benefits. From reducing poverty, prevention of STDs, increasing maternal health (from unsafe abortions, and increasing inter-pregnancy interval), reinforcing women's rights and allowing for proper family planning. >When this gets thrown around,…

> The only objections to contraceptive access are religious in nature, and we can safely discard those. I think this is pretty much his (her?) point. You've basically said that no matter what the point is, it's either not cogent or not valid.

I just noticed the guy's username. I know him. His objection is religious. So the inference is correct, at least in this case.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#86

I've been to Mexico City fairly recently, and I guarantee that in the right places -- possibly the same place the 1986 picture was taken -- you could take something very much like that 1986 picture today (which is perhaps even more tragic today, since its not just after the major earthquake). And I've seen Mexico City pictures just like that 2011 one, barring changes in fashion, from the 1980s. And even the 1960s. On…

Bill Gates is not saying that everywhere in Mexico City is like the picture on the right. "There are still slums and pockets of poverty, but by and large when I visit there now I think, “Wow, most people who live here are middle-class. What a miracle.”" Sadly, I don't understand what you are saying in your second paragraph. I don't see how your criticism refutes Myth 1 "Poor Countries are Doomed to Stay Poor"? Take a…

> I don't see how your criticism refutes Myth 1

I'm not refuting that the myth is a myth (though I think its more of a strawman that Gates attacks poorly than a myth), I'm pointing out that Gates particular attempt to argue from so-called "income per person" trends (that starts with mistreating GDP per capita as "income per person") line of argument against the "myth" is fundamentally flawed.

I don't think poor countries are "doomed to stay poor". But I don't think Gates attacks on that supposed myth (which I don't think is really a particularly dominant belief) are very good, and particularly I don't think they support the alternative thesis he is presenting to the "myth" (which seems to nbe not merely that they aren't "doomed to stay poor", but that the "poor" countries are in fact not poor now.)

> Take a metric, look at it over time. Watch it change. That's exactly what Bill Gates did in his piece.

Except that the metric he takes (which he attempts to conceal by presenting it as something it is not) includes wealth extracted from the nation to other nations, as well as income earned in the nation, so it isn't actually a good measure to show whether the poor nations are actually getting less poor over time.

Taking a metric that doesn't actually measure the thing you are using it to measure is, well, wrong.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#87
post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

>I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. That's because access to contraceptives has been shown to provide a wide range of benefits. From reducing poverty, prevention of STDs, increasing maternal health (from unsafe abortions, and increasing inter-pregnancy interval), reinforcing women's rights and allowing for proper family planning. >When this gets thrown around,…

You should, because there really is no downside.

Right, there are no negative side effects to taking birth control, like increased risk of heart disease.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#88
post #83
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please, for the love of god, stop with fearmongering about overpopulation already. It's pure nonsense. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/#growthrate "The latest United Nations projections indicate that world population will nearly stabilize at just above 10 billion persons after 2062." [1] Also recommended: The documentary "Population Boom" by Werner Boote [2][3] [1] http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Documentati…

Could you please point out what part of that supports the idea that a leveling off of the population would be possible without contraceptives? Both of the replies I've received so far appear to completely misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the population will grow without limit no matter what. I'm saying that contraceptives are vital to avoiding that . Which is not at all contradicted by the fact that our…

> Both of the replies I've received so far appear to completely misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying the population will grow without limit no matter what.

Point taken. I'm sorry, and you're right, I don't disagree with anything you actually said.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the many replies to this post, this is the best response (so far) because it promotes discussion instead of trying to presume, argue, or pre-emptively invalidate sdegutis's opinion.

I posted one of my reasons as a reply to my original comment, but I think it's going to get drowned out in all the requests for it. Irony?

That's not irony. That is just the expected result of not being forthright.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#90
post #25
post #10

Fascinating. This addresses one of my key concerns, that aid often is a bag of cash to high officials, who then go buy 6-10 Lamborghinis and a new apartment rather than actually helping people out.

It is still that, perhaps not in such a distilled fashion, but corruption is rampant throughout the world. Those in power in the "third world" are as susceptible, if not more so, to greed as those here in the "first world." Aid does work to an extent simply because not all of humanity is evil, there are some in positions of power who actually do wish to do good. His report just appears too idyllic and utopian compare…

Honestly, like Gates, if a small amount of corruption happens - if some % get skimmed off to pad some salaries or expense reports, I'm not going to get too excited. People do that. It's the gratuitous bag of cash -> palace transfer that bothers me.
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