2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor • Hacker News Board

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#71

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:25 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #28

btian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind explaining why? Providing contraception (especially condoms) can prevent STDs in addition to preventing unwanted child birth.

I can't. Not because I don't have legit reasoning (I'm convinced I do). But for a far more interesting reason: I'm one of the 0% in this community who hold this position. This means there's no chance for a fair debate. Socially speaking, I think this is far more interesting than my disagreement itself. EDIT: Ignore this, I have already responded. See the rest of the thread.

[deleted]

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#72

Post by moocowduckquack » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

sdegutis wrote: post #57

sdegutis wrote: post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

My position on birth control comes from seeing human life as something worth bringing into the world. There are so many wild cards, so many variables, that all these "but what if" arguments aren't convincing to me. In terms of resource depletion, I'm confident that the human race is capable enough to solve its major sustainability problems without stifling this major source of creative and resourceful potential.

Contraception doesn't stop people being able to have kids, it allows them to have sex without having kids if they want to.

Out of interest, do you want to see contraception restricted in the areas where it is already widely available, or just restricted for the people who do not yet have that access?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#73

Post by bayesianhorse » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

Much of development aid goes directly into health or food security, one way or another. It can be argued that any foreign aid, no matter how badly it is spent ends up saving lives. With vaccination programs it's just much more obvious and visible.

Gates rightly substitutes "foreign aid" with "saving lives", because that is the comparison that matters. When lifes are at stake, dickering about 1% of the federal budget sounds as ridiculous as it should.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#74

Post by localhost » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:26 PM UTC

yobb wrote: post #25

pnathan wrote: post #10

Fascinating. This addresses one of my key concerns, that aid often is a bag of cash to high officials, who then go buy 6-10 Lamborghinis and a new apartment rather than actually helping people out.

It is still that, perhaps not in such a distilled fashion, but corruption is rampant throughout the world. Those in power in the "third world" are as susceptible, if not more so, to greed as those here in the "first world." Aid does work to an extent simply because not all of humanity is evil, there are some in positions of power who actually do wish to do good. His report just appears too idyllic and utopian compare…

One of the aid organizations in his letter, The Global Fund found, during an audit, bribes paid to corrupt Cambodian officials. That's an anecdote in his paper. Do you have facts to back up your assertion that it is "too idyllic and utopian compared to reality"?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#75

Post by sdegutis » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:28 PM UTC

run4_too wrote: post #52

sdegutis wrote: post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

Could I ask why? Would you, for example, ban them in our own society?

Human life is our ultimate resource, for creative potential and resourcefulness and social fulfillment. It seems like we shouldn't squander this resource just because it can seem inconvenient at times. Taking the long view, collective humanity can probably ultimately solve all the "but what if" scenarios that are touted as justifications to stifle human life.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#76

Post by sdegutis » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:33 PM UTC

moocowduckquack wrote: post #72

sdegutis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position on birth control comes from seeing human life as something worth bringing into the world. There are so many wild cards, so many variables, that all these "but what if" arguments aren't convincing to me. In terms of resource depletion, I'm confident that the human race is capable enough to solve its major sustainability problems without stifling this major source of creative and resourceful potential.

Contraception doesn't stop people being able to have kids, it allows them to have sex without having kids if they want to. Out of interest, do you want to see contraception restricted in the areas where it is already widely available, or just restricted for the people who do not yet have that access?

"Contraception doesn't stop people being able to have kids, it allows them to have sex without having kids if they want to."

I can't agree. I'm not saying it physically and literally stops them. But it does create an artificial separation that makes it more alluring to choose sex sans children.

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#77

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:35 PM UTC

zeidrich wrote: post #17

sdegutis wrote: post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

Access to contraceptives allows people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, to remain childless. No access to contraceptives means that people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, will have children. These children will be unintended or unwanted and may not be cared for either through disinterest or lack of ability to provide for them. A child who grows up in that sort of circumsta…

[deleted]

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#78

Post by Spooky23 » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #14

His third point, "Saving lives leads to overpopulation," is a weird straw man. I've never heard of anyone ever suggesting letting suffering children die as some way to keep the population low. He brings up Malthus as another straw man. I'm not sure the point he's trying to make. To stop people from stopping people from saving people's lives? I think he's trying to suggest that the planet has too many people on it but…

Most people concerned about population are ignorant and cruel. Ignorant because they hold opinions based on vacuous news media accounts, and cruel because the underlying assumption is that us middle class western folk with our 2.2 kids are just peachy.

I remember my grandmother talking about these issues, because they were real to her in rural Ireland. She was one of 11 children. 2 siblings died before adulthood. Poor nutrition and no meaningful medical care led to all sorts of chronic health problems for folks in those days. (1910's)

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#79

Post by Kiro » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

agarwlGaurav wrote: post #64

Yesterday I read the Oxfam report that 85 people own half of the world's wealth. http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pressrelease/2014-01-20/ri... Now this is amazing and simple fact. This shows we have completely failed at distribution of wealth. If we could fix this many many problem will vanish. Now instead of what Gates has written this extreme inequality is blocking the progress of poor.

> this extreme inequality is blocking the progress of poor

How so?

Re: 2014 Gates Annual Letter: Myths that block progress for the poor

#80

Post by sdegutis » Tue, Jan 21, 2014, 7:40 PM UTC

zeidrich wrote: post #17

sdegutis wrote: post #5

"Creating societies where people enjoy basic health, relative prosperity, fundamental equality, and access to contraceptives is the only way to secure a sustainable world." I suppose I'm one of the 0% (rounded) who disagree with putting contraception in this list. When this gets thrown around, it makes me feel like an outsider in a programming community where I otherwise agree with probably everything else.

Access to contraceptives allows people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, to remain childless. No access to contraceptives means that people who do not intend to have children, but engage in sex, will have children. These children will be unintended or unwanted and may not be cared for either through disinterest or lack of ability to provide for them. A child who grows up in that sort of circumsta…

"A child who grows up in that sort of circumstance is not kept safe, may succumb to disease, may spread disease, will not be educated, and will have difficulty providing for themselves."

A person's life is far more than just how they start out. Many people have started in situations like this and have gone on to have wonderful lives. Many have even changed the world. This alone isn't enough to convince me that we should give in to short-sightedness by allowing people to prevent or destroy future human lives.

"In any case, if people can choose whether they want to have a child or not, then contraception just helps them make that choice."

In the same way that it's smart to invest money long-term, I think it's smart to invest in long-term human potential. I think that's really our greatest resource.

EDIT: added a little tact