MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors • Hacker News Board

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#141

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 16, 2009, 7:15 PM UTC

mhb wrote: post #104

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternate comment: How's about commenting on the actual substance and not whining about the headline? Sure, he's asking for a pony in some ways, but they're making pro machines with displays that don't do what they say or anything "pro" for that matter.

It's not just the headline. Who makes a purchase decision base on a product being called "pro"? It must be very confusing for him when he visits a supermarket and encounters words all over the place like "new", "improved", "better", "more", "bigger"...

[deleted]

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#142

Post by cinkler » Thu, Jul 16, 2009, 7:58 PM UTC

asciilifeform wrote: post #139

cabacon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

|What's next, the abolition of 44.1KHz audio? Actually, it's funny that you pose that question in this article. I think MP3s are a great example of "44.1KHz" audio that is not the fidelity of what you're probably thinking of, the CD-Audio standard. People are clearly prioritizing things other than the sheer quality of the material, be it visual or audio. I think it's impressive that the LCD folks have been able to en…

> the LCD guys are throwing away quality that, apparently, people don't care about either. The problem is that a substantial minority does care about quality - and we are left out in the cold. Have you ever priced a "specialist" monitor? That is where all non-lowest-common-denominator user interface technology seems to be headed - squarely outside the budget of the individual. And as we can see from the article, it h…

It is a trend in everything that surrounds us - cars, fridges, clothes, shoes, buildings - everything is made cheaper. Compare computer case from 1990 and now - modern economy class cases are ultra light. Reason is simple - market doesn't care about 8 or 10 or 12 bit displays, so they are not offered. Cost to the company to introduce them far overweights benefit of selling it to .01% of individuals who care. Or who think that they care.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#143

Post by wmf » Thu, Jul 16, 2009, 11:23 PM UTC

CamperBob wrote: post #116

ghshephard wrote: post #37

Does anybody know why Apple won't just come out and declare whether the 13" MacBook has 6 Bit or 8 Bit color? As a side note - this is why I love HN - I remember the class action lawsuit over colors and Apple a few years ago (or at least discussion around it) - but I didn't know what it was over. Now I have insight into the differences in LCD color qualities and get the insight that the 13" MacBook pro isn't _really_…

Probably because they want to reserve the ability to switch panel vendors or part numbers in mid-production. This isn't uncommon.

If it's true that all panels are now 6-bit, that wouldn't matter. Also, specifying a 6-bit display wouldn't prevent them from silently shipping a better one in the future -- Apple has been known to ship faster processors or optical drives than specified.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#144

Post by Lol_Lolovici » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 5:58 AM UTC

sgk284 wrote: post #137

wenbert wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that the 13" inch Macbook Pro had the 6 bit display while the others had 8 bit :-/ If the entire MBP line has 6 bit displays, then why complain? I am a bit concerned of Apple's false advertising though. So my 2006-ish 17 Macbook Pro is not able to display millions of colors? That is sad...

Damn near every LCD is 6-bits per channel, people are getting upset over nothing.

Damn nearly everybody was a poor peasant or slave in the 1000s, people where getting upset over nothing.

Just because the status quo is such it doesn't mean it is good and cannot be improved. I was searching for a quality LCD screen lately and I couldn't find a reasonable 8-bit screen at any shop, just 6-bit. I read a lot of reviews from seemingly professional sites and they all say the same thing: 8-bit MVA, PVA or IPS panel types are much much better than 6-bit TN at anything except price and maybe a bit of extra latency (not important for anyone except hardcore FPS gamers). The sad state of affairs is that all the reasonably priced 8-bit screens I wanted were out of stock for an unknown period of time at all shops (like the HP LP2475w) or out of production for good. It seems I'll have to pick the best of the worst and be happy just because everybody has the same.

When your product is theoretically a pro product aimed as such and is pretty expensive to begin with you expect the best quality out of all the components. I own a PowerBook Pro and this thing is amazing. More than 5 years old and and everthing works perfectly except some scratches on the metal surface due to drops from heights. The screen in it is the best I ever saw, even compared to new expensive Dells, HPs and others I saw at friends and colleagues. It will be a sad day when I have to change it with a MacBook Pro and the screen will be worse.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#145

Post by shiranaihito » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 7:58 AM UTC

mhb wrote: post #104

jasonlbaptiste wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternate comment: How's about commenting on the actual substance and not whining about the headline? Sure, he's asking for a pony in some ways, but they're making pro machines with displays that don't do what they say or anything "pro" for that matter.

It's not just the headline. Who makes a purchase decision base on a product being called "pro"? It must be very confusing for him when he visits a supermarket and encounters words all over the place like "new", "improved", "better", "more", "bigger"...

> Who makes a purchase decision base on a product being called "pro"?

Actually, as he explained in the article, he made the decision based on specs, and weight.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#146

Post by dchest » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 8:07 AM UTC

marbletiles wrote: post #105

randallsquared wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It "supports" millions of colors; it just displays some of them with multiple pixel tricks. Which is probably fine with me -- I haven't seen a comparison where I could tell the difference without blowing the pixels up.

The difference leaps out at you if you've done any sort of colour work at all. I can even see in the gradients on the Finder window toolbars.

This probably means that you have a defective display. I have a 17" MacBook Pro that has this kind of defect, where I can see bad gradients, etc. However, three other Macs in our possession doesn't have this issue.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#147

Post by listic » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 9:04 AM UTC

TrevorJ wrote: post #26

old-gregg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've been paying attention you would have noticed that the tech goes backwards in the world of LCDs: as time goes on, high-quality LCDs are being displaced by 6-bit junk-panels not only in laptops (there isn't a single one 8-bit LCD laptop available in US right now) but even in desktops as well: 20" iMacs are 6-bit too. Viewing angles and contrast ratios are shrinking as well, hence the disgusting proliferation…

I miss a good CRT screen.

In any more or less civilized, urban environment you should be able to choose from a selection of used CRT screens. Of course, you should be knowing what you are buying and check them rigorously, as not all of them will be in good condition and CRTs develop various defects when they age. But generally, you can get yourself a decent CRT (or other piece of old equipment, for that matter) if you really want to.

I bought 2 CRTs half a year ago, for me and my brother. They were 21" Sony E530, mnf. 2001-2002 Not the top models (F520/G520 are better, and there is also 24" widescreen Sony FW900) but I was not willing to hunt for the better ones, those were quite fine for us. I think of buying 2 more 21" CRTs for the country house.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#148

Post by shiranaihito » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 10:32 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #121

arebop wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that taste can be developed. A musician probably will like the sound best from a monitor, but someone who doesn't pay as much attention to sound has a less nuanced appreciation and taste. Cheaper speakers are often biased to exaggerate the qualities that are appealing to the majority (whose tastes are less refined), hence the scare quotes acknowledging the subjective interpretation of goodness.

I didn't actually intend to make actual speaker "goodness" into a factor in the discussion, but I see now that it seems to have done so; the scare quotes were to indicate that a non-engineer (even a musician who isn't also an engineer) would possibly prefer consumer speakers because they often smooth the sound and boost some frequencies often perceived as being "good". As you note, consumer speakers (at most price po…

I've got a pair of Quested F11's (the sexy purple version) at home, and I think they sound really "good" :)

They're the best investment I've ever made, but I'm just a music-enthusiast. I was roughly aware of the issues you brought up, and it was a very good and thorough explanation.

I guess I just wanted to point out that there are even "normal people" out there who appreciate accuracy/quality in speakers.

It's important to know that anyone can benefit from using studio monitors for listening to music. They reproduce music in such a lovely way - accurate, detailed and pleasant. Listen to your favourite music, but in a new way. Discover things you didn't know were there.

Even - shall we say, despite the accuracy - there's plenty of bass to go around, and your studio monitors can put out insane levels of volume and still reproduce everything beautifully.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#149

Post by duskwuff » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 3:15 PM UTC

jws wrote: post #134

duskwuff wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confused. "6 bit displays" have 6 bits of color data per channel, and hence can display 2^18 (262,144) colors without dithering. I'm not sure where you're getting 191 and 767 from.

I am in no way confused. The three color components of an LCD pixel are not in the same spatial location. Look closely and you will find three rectangular areas, one for each color. The only colors you can make without combining elements are at the 2^6 or 2^8 variants of red, green, and blue. I subtract two because (ok, I am confused, I only subtracted one before) because the blacks are all the same.

1. If you're seeing the RGB elements separately, you need to sit a little farther back from the screen. :) I can't pick them out individually at all (I can just barely see the pixel grid with the screen an inch from my face), so it's not particularly useful to think of color this way - because nobody sees it like that.

2. Even ignoring this, your numbers are still wrong. 2^6 = 64, and 2^8 = 256.

Re: MacBook Pro, Thousands of Colors

#150

Post by mhb » Fri, Jul 17, 2009, 4:31 PM UTC

shiranaihito wrote: post #145

mhb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the headline. Who makes a purchase decision base on a product being called "pro"? It must be very confusing for him when he visits a supermarket and encounters words all over the place like "new", "improved", "better", "more", "bigger"...

> Who makes a purchase decision base on a product being called "pro"? Actually, as he explained in the article, he made the decision based on specs, and weight.

OK. But he apparently had some expectation related to the Pro nomenclature: I complained that it was a Pro machine, and should be treated as such.