OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on • Hacker News Board

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#411

Post by Istof » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 10:42 AM UTC

myrandomcomment wrote: post #208

tobiasu wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This discussion comes up every time only because some people seem to think OS development is like racking new x86 servers running RHEL. Many of the machines do not have LOM. They have hardware failures instead. They hang because they get trashed building OpenBSD and ports pretty much 24/7. There is debugging and serial cables going on. Someone needs to push that NMI button and check the LEDs flicker like they should.…

While what you say is correct, Theo's stance on this is still a bit unreasonable. A review should be done to see which systems can be moved or supported by the means of remote power off strips and IP console servers. They should be perfectly willing to move that gear if someone offers them the space. All the Sun SPARC, Alpha and Intel most likely falls into this category. Only systems that someone needs to be physica…

maybe he doesn't want anyone else to have physical access (for security.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#412

Post by PaulRobinson » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 1:44 PM UTC

rubiquity wrote: post #60

PaulRobinson wrote: post #50

So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks. Not just Theo, but he has set the bar quite low when it comes to friendliness and tolerance of questions from younger/less experienced contributors. Linus' rants on the Linux kernel lists are almost cookie cutter copies of Theo's. There is "opinionated software" and then there is Theo being an intolerable, obnoxious,…

We're in a post-NSA revelations world and you're happy to see a project like OpenBSD disappear just because the people behind it aren't nice?

Yes, because other projects will rise in its place run by people with better social skills, and they are more likely to build tools of use to a wider audience, and we'll see wider acceptance of crypto.

I genuinely believe my non-tech friends and family have such a poor approach to security, because the people who have a good approach to developing security tools have such a poor approach towards my non-tech friends and family.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#413

Post by PaulRobinson » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

asdasf wrote: post #156

PaulRobinson wrote: post #50

So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks. Not just Theo, but he has set the bar quite low when it comes to friendliness and tolerance of questions from younger/less experienced contributors. Linus' rants on the Linux kernel lists are almost cookie cutter copies of Theo's. There is "opinionated software" and then there is Theo being an intolerable, obnoxious,…

>So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks Really? Could you give me an example of that? Because from where I sit, as someone having been around the openbsd world for ~15 years, I don't see it. I see lots of people bitch about it, but never any examples of it actually happening. It is just something people seem to assume will be taken as gospel.

I once offered to help work on some docs to make them a bit more user-friendly because at the time they were quite obtuse. Theo responded with something along the lines of requesting I please go away, as this project doesn't need people like me, and then a liberal sprinkling of lots of rude names and insults suggesting I was from under a rock/an idiot/etc.

I offered help and enthusiasm for the project. He called me a lot of names and suggested OpenBSD wasn't for people who weren't like him.

That's just me. Fine, I'm a big guy, I can take it. But I then watched for months as he did the same to countless other individuals. Newb: "Hey, we could do 'X'" Theo: "No, go away, I hate you", is pretty much the tone.

Then there is the more public stuff. The stuff that is historic but a little larger.

He created OpenBSD because the NetBSD core ousted him for his attitude and demeanour towards other developers.

There is a whole section of his Wikipedia page dedicated to his "Outspokenness" which is a polite way of calling what is actually his "Obnoxiousness":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_de_Raadt#Outspokenness

Nobody doubts he can write code, and that OpenBSD - and OpenSSH in particular - was a bonus to the open source World, but my point is that he and his inner circle are hostile to the rest of the community who aren't quite like them. It's a clique.

And cliques can't ask outsiders for help once they're established: they made up the rules, and they will live (and die), by those rules.

Theo had a choice: compromise, and be nice to people and understand other people's needs; or, don't compromise and be a bit of a jerk and piss people off but stay true to your own values.

He chose the latter. Fine. He should not be surprised that they are not running to their wallets when he needs $20k for electricity bills to continue running the project in that same way.

I'm not being rude about this, I'm being pragmatic. I don't particularly want to see OpenBSD die, but I can't see many people rushing to save it, and that's because the top hierarchy are perceived as - and are documented as regularly behaving as - complete jerks.

If Theo had been a little more temperate to more people, it's quite likely his $20k (and then some) would have been raised in under an hour. I know some FreeBSD guys have raised similar/larger amounts for smaller projects in the past within a day or two. How? By being nice people that other people want to support.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#414

Post by asdasf » Mon, Jan 20, 2014, 3:36 PM UTC

PaulRobinson wrote: post #413

asdasf wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So let's deal with the elephant in the room: the OpenBSD project is run by complete and utter jerks Really? Could you give me an example of that? Because from where I sit, as someone having been around the openbsd world for ~15 years, I don't see it. I see lots of people bitch about it, but never any examples of it actually happening. It is just something people seem to assume will be taken as gospel.

I once offered to help work on some docs to make them a bit more user-friendly because at the time they were quite obtuse. Theo responded with something along the lines of requesting I please go away, as this project doesn't need people like me, and then a liberal sprinkling of lots of rude names and insults suggesting I was from under a rock/an idiot/etc. I offered help and enthusiasm for the project. He called me a…

>I offered help and enthusiasm for the project. He called me a lot of names and suggested OpenBSD wasn't for people who weren't like him.

The mailing lists are all archived. Show me the link. The whole point was I hear bullshit stories all the time, but having been on the lists for over a decade, I know they are bullshit.

>but I can't see many people rushing to save it

Nobody cares what you can see. You just want some excuse to push your weird vendetta. Plenty of people are quite happy with openbsd, don't care about your imaginary problems, and have coughed up the $20k.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#415

Post by nzp » Sat, Jan 25, 2014, 12:33 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #393

nzp wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most FOSS projects with the name pattern OpenXYZ fall under the OpenBSD umbrella in one way or the other.

Doubtful, it's a really common pattern (opencv, opencollada,OpenOffice, opensolaris etc etc)

Note: OpenXYZ, not OpenSomethingSomething. Anyway, OpenBGPD, OpenOSPFD, OpenNTPD, OpenSMTPD, OpenSSH, OpenIKED. OK, so it's more like OpenABCD and I should probably have written "many" instead of "most". :)