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What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#21

Post by nickff »

chc wrote: post #8
jusben1369 wrote: post #3

This is really interesting stuff. I know they touched upon it but these studies, if they really want to change things, need to do a much better job of showing an "ROI". Too often these studies seem goaled around showing that poverty has a negative impact and assume the logical next step is so we'll address that. However, many people don't have an issue with others being in poverty; particularly if they believe they'r…

No. Most staunch opponents of wealth redistribution oppose it on principle, not practical terms. You can tell them in very concrete terms that their tax dollars will benefit them more than it would hurt them and their reply will be, "Well, then you should let me distribute my money that way instead of taking it and doing it yourself."

>" Most staunch opponents of wealth redistribution oppose it on principle, not practical terms."

Please provide a citation for this claim, I have not seen any evidence either way.

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#22

Post by logicallee »

I wonder what would happen if you gave a stipend to kids with a high IQ, just take a test monthly and get a bit of cash no questions asked. They could eat and support their family or wahtever. start a business with it. Also would motivate them to study hard.

Steve Jobs was supposedly given a few dollars in exchange for performing his schoolwork, by one of his teachers. Could that have had a positive effect on establishing a virtuous cycle of hard work for him?

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#23

Post by bluedevil2k »

logicallee wrote: post #22

I wonder what would happen if you gave a stipend to kids with a high IQ, just take a test monthly and get a bit of cash no questions asked. They could eat and support their family or wahtever. start a business with it. Also would motivate them to study hard. Steve Jobs was supposedly given a few dollars in exchange for performing his schoolwork, by one of his teachers. Could that have had a positive effect on establi…

The problem with this idea is that in general, smart kids come from smart parents, and in general, smart adults earn more income (and thus are less in need of a supplemental income)

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#24

Post by gjmulhol »

pasbesoin wrote: post #16

The outfall of WWII could perhaps be considered one of the largest instances of "stipends" (both domestically for the U.S. and overseas) ever perpetrated. The outcomes, from my perspective, were "not so bad". From my perspective, the question can be broken down to two points or serial steps: 1) Do people have the resources to take care of and improve themselves? 2) Do they use and apply those resources well? Without…

Well said. I think there are valid arguments on each side. What, to me, seems to hold back a lot of healthy discussion is a reliance on anecdotes by both sides. It is very easy to assume that if you give an alcoholic father some money, he will spend it on alcohol. I am sure this is the case in some situations, but I think your point about applying resources well, especially when children are involved, is critical and true.

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#25

Post by DigitalJack »

ubernostrum wrote: post #19
pmorici wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of reporting out there about how in poor rural communities there are doctors who basically give out diagnosis for disability or mental illness on less than factual medical grounds that qualify people to receive government benefits from, for example, the Social Security disability fund. The OP is asking what the difference between the thinly veiled fraud that is going on now is and giving a stipend when…

So, bootstrappy and savvy entrepreneurs disrupting the established system to their advantage? Because when a business skirts or even outright commits fraud against/tramples on regulations, HN tends to cheer about how the regulations had it coming. And what you are asserting happens is no different.

The point is it doesn't work anyway.

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#26

Post by epmatsw »

ubernostrum wrote: post #19
pmorici wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of reporting out there about how in poor rural communities there are doctors who basically give out diagnosis for disability or mental illness on less than factual medical grounds that qualify people to receive government benefits from, for example, the Social Security disability fund. The OP is asking what the difference between the thinly veiled fraud that is going on now is and giving a stipend when…

So, bootstrappy and savvy entrepreneurs disrupting the established system to their advantage? Because when a business skirts or even outright commits fraud against/tramples on regulations, HN tends to cheer about how the regulations had it coming. And what you are asserting happens is no different.

Generally when HN cheers someone skirting regulations, it's because the person/company is doing so to produce something of value rather than to avoid having to work.

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#27

Post by lostlogin »

joelrunyon wrote: post #13
jusben1369 wrote: post #3

This is really interesting stuff. I know they touched upon it but these studies, if they really want to change things, need to do a much better job of showing an "ROI". Too often these studies seem goaled around showing that poverty has a negative impact and assume the logical next step is so we'll address that. However, many people don't have an issue with others being in poverty; particularly if they believe they'r…

I'm always surprised people yell about the U.S. not wanting to help those in poverty. I think that's pretty well refuted by noting that the U.S. is #1 in charitable giving [1]. The bigger problem seems to be people trusting government imposed redistribution schemes rather than the rejection of them altogether. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/world-giving-index-...

The are all sorts of ways to measure aid. Have a read of this if it interests you. I stumbled across it while looking to see if I could find a $ given per head of population graph I saw a while back. I didn't find it. http://kriswager.blogspot.co.nz/2007/03/is-usa-biggest-forei...

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#28

Post by bosie »

joelrunyon wrote: post #13
jusben1369 wrote: post #3

This is really interesting stuff. I know they touched upon it but these studies, if they really want to change things, need to do a much better job of showing an "ROI". Too often these studies seem goaled around showing that poverty has a negative impact and assume the logical next step is so we'll address that. However, many people don't have an issue with others being in poverty; particularly if they believe they'r…

I'm always surprised people yell about the U.S. not wanting to help those in poverty. I think that's pretty well refuted by noting that the U.S. is #1 in charitable giving [1]. The bigger problem seems to be people trusting government imposed redistribution schemes rather than the rejection of them altogether. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/world-giving-index-...

> I think that's pretty well refuted by noting that the U.S. is #1 in charitable giving [1]

After browsing the PDF, it seems to not account for many things. No idea why you think it is 'well refuted'. E.g. It does not account for higher taxes, which are funneled to help the poor. It also seems to count everything binary, either you helped or you did not. No mention is given as to how much time/money you actually donated - and to whom.

Additionally, weighing all three things (giving money/helping strangers/volunteering time) the same is rather odd. The us is #10 at giving money. And this does not even include taxes! Way to fight poverty.

If it weren't for the dubious 'helping a stranger' the US would not be anywhere.

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#29

Post by rtpg »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #10
paperwork wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not clear what you mean by "It's happening now." What's happening?

Welfare, food stamps, Social Security disability

Those are not nearly enough for someone to exist out of the pit of despair.

Obviously someone against these services will probably think it's too much. Welcome to politics

Re: What Happens When the Poor Receive a Stipend?

#30

Post by dahart »

This idea was explored a bit more thoroughly in an episode of This American Life

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/08/16/212645252/episode-...

They discuss and question the validity of the very deeply held belief that if you "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

While its very hard to argue with this logic, and it seems so true and obvious, it also implicitly assumes that the poor are poor due to lack of education, rather than due to lack of money.

I can't defend GiveDirectly or stand by any claims made on either side, but apparently the results they're achieving is some evidence that the poor really do just need some seed funding to launch from, much like startup companies need inital funding in order to launch.

One thing I'm sure of, whether you're poor or trying to start a company is that its very hard to start your virtuous growth cycle without a little money.

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