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For the Love of Money

nytimes.com

21–30 of 291 posts

Re: For the Love of Money

#21
post #16

I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Not so nurse practitioners. Is this statement (from the article) true? I'm under the impression that financial innovations throughout history have generally spurred capital investment. Innovations like fractional-reserve lending have made bankers&investors wealthy, but also spurred spending on…

They had running water and other complex infrastructure in ancient Rome well before derivatives were invented I really doubt we'd be living in a barren wasteland w/o them.

There would certainly be an impact if all that stuff went away but it wouldn't be because of it's absence it would be because of the pain of unwinding it all.

Re: For the Love of Money

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Derivatives help determine prices, moves risk to those who want it, increase trade volume, control speculation, and create educated predictions for others to observe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)#Economic_f...

Exactly, they do not provide loans, or determine availability of said loans (beyond insulating risk allowing an institution to make more risky investments which as we've seen can be a catastrophic practice). I would venture that none of these things benefit the 'average' person. Not saying its a bad thing, but the great amount of money dumped into this area of the economy, does not equate to their usefulness to socie…

If you're an average person who was going to lose your home, derivatives enabled the bank to give you a loan. Therefore, derivatives have provided value to average people.

However, the 2008 financial crisis showed that when tested, derivatives don't provide much of the value that they were supposed to (shifting risk to those who want it and will quietly suffer the consequences of failure without having spillover effects on the rest of the economy) which essentially retcons away much of that value.

Re: For the Love of Money

#23
post #16

I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Not so nurse practitioners. Is this statement (from the article) true? I'm under the impression that financial innovations throughout history have generally spurred capital investment. Innovations like fractional-reserve lending have made bankers&investors wealthy, but also spurred spending on…

It's sorta up for debate.

My understanding, which is tiny and very limited, is that you can think of the role of finance operators as "liquidity providers". They're the grease in the wheels of capitalism; by either providing access to capital (via loans, or investment) or by matching buyers with sellers.

A classical example is you're a farmer that wants to hedge the risk that your crop will fail due to random weather events or that there will be such a glut in the market that you won't be able to sell your crop profitably. So, you enter a contract to sell your crop at a fixed rate long before harvest comes along. That's a future contract, and it's a kind of derivative.

So, derivatives can be really socially useful instruments. They can act like certain kinds of insurance, or allow you to capture different dimensions of value on assets that you already own.

However, and here's where the argument comes in, it's not clear that all kinds of derivatives provide socially useful forms of gambling. The prime example here is that of the collateralized debt obligation in which huge portions of the US mortgage market got sunk into.

Mortgage backed securities are probably not in of themselves terrible ideas but the way CDOs were structured made it impossible to objectively value the risk behind the instrument. It's just not clear how a dip in the market might affect the value of your CDO tranche. It's actually an np-complete problem - https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/appel/intractability-fina...

Another example is high frequency trading - where you're a day trader on steroids and have computers exchanging massive quantities of stocks based on fluctuations of fractions of cents. HFT people will argue that they provide more liquidity in the market - it's easier to sell your stocks because HF traders increase the overall volume, etc. However, it's in effect launched an arms race between different trading firms and some people say that they're literally making money by skimming off everyone else who trades stocks. There's a very reasonable argument that we don't want markets to operate faster than human perception. If you have to make a decision about selling something, placing a ground foor and minimum transaction time of say half a second isn't going to harm anyone who needs that liquidity for their business, or anything else that touches the "real economy".

To summarize: certain kinds of financial instruments seem to provide no value above and beyond letting well-connected actors to place (potentially ridiculous) bets. Using your money, one way or another - whether it's your farm, the mortgage on your house, or your pension fund.

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If we accept the above as true, we can go further on a limb and ask questions about why is the wealth that passes through financial markets so liberally redistributed to people in the industry? Some people talk about it being a function of volume, but individuals are rarely if ever liable. When do they stop providing a service, and when do they start skimming off the top?

Re: For the Love of Money

#24
post #16

I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Not so nurse practitioners. Is this statement (from the article) true? I'm under the impression that financial innovations throughout history have generally spurred capital investment. Innovations like fractional-reserve lending have made bankers&investors wealthy, but also spurred spending on…

It is debatable if derivatives do more harm than good. Just look at the 2008 financial crisis... From Jaredsohn's link further in the thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)#Economic_f... . In the context of a 2010 examination of the ICE Trust, an industry self-regulatory body, Gary Gensler, the chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission which regulates most derivatives, was quoted saying…

Best case, what is the societal function of derivatives?

As a relatively ignorant layperson, my guess is that derivatives allow productive businesses to hedge against uncontrollable risks.

A business with less risks requires less capital buffer, which encourages & allows for more capital investment and profit-taking.

In a nutshell, derivatives allow businesses to run and grow on less capital, by reducing the amount of capital-on-hand required to buffer against risk.

Is there some other way in which derivatives serve an ostensibly positive function in society? Am I missing something here?

Re: For the Love of Money

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was sharp, good with numbers. I had marketable talents. But in the end I didn’t really do anything. I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Hits the nail on the head for me. In the end these people make incredible amounts of money for doing what amounts to a job that is worthless to the society at large.

If it is "worthless to the society at large" then why do people pay for it? Are they insane? It's popular to beat up on the financial industry, but they do actually do something: finance loans. Without them, good luck getting a mortgage, car loan, or a loan to start a business.

Imagine a world where some magic firehose of money gives everyone $100k/year for free. And now suppose you have the skill of redirecting that firehose a bit, with the result that you can make one lucky person get $200k/year instead, while 11 other people get $90k/year instead of $100k/year.

Then your firehose-manipulation skills are worthless to society at large -- they reduce the net influx of money by $10k/year when you practise them -- but I bet you'd have no trouble finding someone sane and willing to pay you $50k/year to point the firehose their way.

(Of course in this exact scenario you would do better just to take the extra yourself; the real-world counterpart of the skill, though, produces gains roughly in proportion to the amount of money put in, and you can do better by persuading thousands of people to get you to point the firehose their way than by just working for yourself.)

I make no claim that the real-world finance industry is like that. But it illustrates schematically how something can be (1) of negative value to society as a whole and (2) something sane people are willing to pay for. And it's not unreasonable to conjecture that a lot of the things investment banks and hedge funds do have something like the same structure.

Oh, one other thing. Suppose that actually the firehose distributes money very unevenly. Then you might do this: manipulate the firehose to benefit one set of rich people at the expense of another, take their money, and give some of it to poor people. Doing that might be substantially net positive to society. So even taking this rather cynical view of the finance industry, some people in it might be doing a whole lot of good on balance. (It's called "earning to give" by the cool kids these days. But even if you don't explicitly give anything away, the magic of income tax -- if the government spends reasonably wisely -- may turn a slightly-negative-sum activity into something that benefits society on the whole.)

[EDITED to insert an accidentally omitted word and clarify slightly. No change in substance.]

Re: For the Love of Money

#26
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seriously attempting to imply that there is no value provided by a highly liquid and efficient derivatives market? I'm not going to say these people are earning an amount commensurate to the value they provide to society, but pretending that they are just running a casino is equally naive.

I would say they provide little to no value to the average person no. Please clarify what they provide to society at large (meaning most people and not just large portfolios or predatory credit companies)? Greater security and insulation against bad investments? (which to be clear the vast majority of people do not have enough money to make in the first place.) Seems a lot like playing odds at a Casino, to use your e…

They make it so the interest on your mortgage is 3% instead of maybe 3.5%. That's a lot of money that you and many other normal people get to save because they do the work of connecting you to institutional investors via packaging your debt. They might take a cut and it may look big in nominal terms but barring fraud everyone is better off.

Re: For the Love of Money

#27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is debatable if derivatives do more harm than good. Just look at the 2008 financial crisis... From Jaredsohn's link further in the thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)#Economic_f... . In the context of a 2010 examination of the ICE Trust, an industry self-regulatory body, Gary Gensler, the chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission which regulates most derivatives, was quoted saying…

Best case, what is the societal function of derivatives? As a relatively ignorant layperson, my guess is that derivatives allow productive businesses to hedge against uncontrollable risks. A business with less risks requires less capital buffer, which encourages & allows for more capital investment and profit-taking. In a nutshell, derivatives allow businesses to run and grow on less capital, by reducing the amount o…

As the above commenter stated. In the classical example (and a perfect world) derivatives can act as a sort of "insurance" or guidebook of risk. But we do not live in a perfect world. Greed is a real thing (and maybe one of the reasons Capitalism works so damn well), so it rarely works exactly that way. In the end it is often just a way to treat the little guy as a sucker while insulating the bigger fish. Or at least that is how history has shown it to play out so far.

Re: For the Love of Money

#28
Yay, more villifying "Wall Street" and fueling the "Wall Street vs. Main Street" fire, and suggesting that it's somehow noble or good to not want to be rich.

I think everybody should want to be rich.

I've tried poverty and in my opinion - it sucks. It sucks big, steaming donkey balls.

The desire to make more money, to improve one's "lot in life" and to succeed, this is a Good Thing. Because a few assholes go too far in some ways, or do bad things along the path, does not change the fundamentals.

You can be rich and unhappy, or poor and unhappy. Given a choice, if I'm going to be unhappy, I'd rather at least be rich.

No one should feel any need to apologize or feel guilty about wanting to make money, even lots of money. If you want to be a fucking billionaire, go become a billionaire. Just feel guilty if you lie, or cheat or steal, or otherwise do unethical things to get there. And remember that having more money doesn't make you a better person, or intrinsically more valuable.

Re: For the Love of Money

#29

I think the author has suffered from a lot of psychological pain stemming from his childhood, and I can sympathize a lot with that. I think he really did have a wealth addiction, like he describes. However, that doesn't generalize to the entire industry. People (especially men) like money and power because of the benefits they brings. It doesn't have to be an addiction. Furthermore, the idea that it would take an add…

Yes, I was sharp, good with numbers. I had marketable talents. But in the end I didn’t really do anything. I was a derivatives trader, and it occurred to me the world would hardly change at all if credit derivatives ceased to exist. Hits the nail on the head for me. In the end these people make incredible amounts of money for doing what amounts to a job that is worthless to the society at large.

It's not worthless - derivates have an important function in reducing volatility. But the rewards for being a merely competent derivatives trader are wildly disproportionate to the rewards for being competent in some other challenging field (eg nursing, as mentioned int he article). It's a classic example of rent-seeking.

Re: For the Love of Money

#30

Yay, more villifying "Wall Street" and fueling the "Wall Street vs. Main Street" fire, and suggesting that it's somehow noble or good to not want to be rich. I think everybody should want to be rich. I've tried poverty and in my opinion - it sucks. It sucks big, steaming donkey balls. The desire to make more money, to improve one's "lot in life" and to succeed, this is a Good Thing. Because a few assholes go too far…

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