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Peelian Principles

en.wikipedia.org

21–30 of 48 posts

Re: Peelian Principles

#21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So kindly explain what's wrong, in principle, with defining book ideals and then using these as criteria to evaluate the success of organizations? The Peelian principles have been largely obscured or ignored in recent decades, and arguably they were always a bit hollow -- but the history of British policing since the 1830s has had significantly less emphasis on raw offensive firepower than other police systems: even…

Indeed, I think there's something a bit too fatalistic about the idea that the police must automatically be bad because the very nature of authority is corrupting. It's somewhat similar to genetically-deterministic evo-psych, or arguments that group X will behave in a certain way because of their privileges or sufferings. There might be a tendency toward that pattern of behaviour, but tendencies can be overcome. In s…

The real question is how we design robust institutional cultures that don't deteriorate over time, and adhere to the original mission goals. (And also how we free ourselves from the tyranny of low expectations, so that we can set good goals rather than accepting bad outcomes as inevitable.)

Note that Peel's Principles were in no small part to address the public order aftermath of the Peterloo Massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_massacre

Prior to the huge wave of policing and justice reforms of the 1830s, in the UK not only were there no real organized police forces, but what policing there was relied on local bailiffs, freelance for-profit thief-takers (google "Jonathan Wilde" for an extraordinary example of just how wrong for-profit policing can go!), and in extremis, the army (who, at Peterloo, sent a cavalry charge into a large crowd who were demonstrating for electoral reform: many dead, many hundreds injured).

Some sort of reform was clearly necessary, and the drawbacks of a military style of public order enforcement was glaringly obvious: hence the attempt at re-inventing the entire concept of policing.

Re: Peelian Principles

#23

I wouldn't say all these principles are in force in the UK today. The very fact that our police is routinely used to break up peaceful demonstrations, to stop demonstrations from occurring in areas were our politicians might see them is kind of a perversion of one of the key points. The officers do still wear the numbers but they are routinely covered up to hide their identities, especially when they are dealing with…

Some of the positives of this system of justice do still remain - Personally, I would still approach a UK police officer in the street to ask for help without fear[1], whereas I don't think I'd ever go and ask for help from a US cop except in the direst of circumstances (mainly because of their reputation, and that they are all armed).

That said, your criticisms of the current force are definitely valid ones, and I would like to see them addressed by a political movement to restore these principles in full to British policing.

[1] with a few exceptions - not armed officers at airports, or police officers at protests whether or not in riot gear.

Re: Peelian Principles

#24
Abuse of authority only comes from the public sector (aka as government). In the private sector you get a complaint and you're fired.

Private defense and private security is the future.

Re: Peelian Principles

#25

One thing people need to remember is that in France, UK, Australia, Canada etc guns are illegal. That makes a big difference since police know that provided they don't invade someone's personal space they aren't at risk of dying. And as such they are able to resolve issues without needing to act with a defensive posture. It may seem arbitrary but you will never think of a policeman as an ordinary citizen if they aren…

The first thing authoritarian states do is take the guns.

Re: Peelian Principles

#26

One thing people need to remember is that in France, UK, Australia, Canada etc guns are illegal. That makes a big difference since police know that provided they don't invade someone's personal space they aren't at risk of dying. And as such they are able to resolve issues without needing to act with a defensive posture. It may seem arbitrary but you will never think of a policeman as an ordinary citizen if they aren…

The only reason police need to fear a non-criminal gun owner is if the officer acts abusively. A criminal on the other hand could get a gun wether they are illegal in the area or not and might be more inclined to use it regardless of the police behavior. I doubt outlawing guns entirely makes a police officer's job safer it just allows free reign to harass law abiding citizens w/o serious risk.

Re: Peelian Principles

#27

One thing people need to remember is that in France, UK, Australia, Canada etc guns are illegal. That makes a big difference since police know that provided they don't invade someone's personal space they aren't at risk of dying. And as such they are able to resolve issues without needing to act with a defensive posture. It may seem arbitrary but you will never think of a policeman as an ordinary citizen if they aren…

The first thing authoritarian states do is take the guns.

That historically did not happen.

Fascism under Mussolini did create a law about guns. It did this many years after the PNF took power, and the law only states that you have to declare "substantial changes" in your ownership of weapons[0].

The same happened with nazi germany. There was a weapons law enacted in 1938, about five years after books had been burned, the gestapo had been installed and concentration camps for political opposition had been created.

This law deregulated the acquisition of firearms, which had been regulated since 1919[1].

[0] http://www.sanzioniamministrative.it/collegamenti/I%20Codici... [1] http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=402...

Re: Peelian Principles

#28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I think there's something a bit too fatalistic about the idea that the police must automatically be bad because the very nature of authority is corrupting. It's somewhat similar to genetically-deterministic evo-psych, or arguments that group X will behave in a certain way because of their privileges or sufferings. There might be a tendency toward that pattern of behaviour, but tendencies can be overcome. In s…

The real question is how we design robust institutional cultures that don't deteriorate over time, and adhere to the original mission goals. (And also how we free ourselves from the tyranny of low expectations, so that we can set good goals rather than accepting bad outcomes as inevitable.) Note that Peel's Principles were in no small part to address the public order aftermath of the Peterloo Massacre: http://en.wiki…

Kinda ironic that you describe the problem as "military style of public order enforcement", since one of the hallmarks and necessities of the very reforms was the centralization of policing, and the imposition of various military-like organization on the police in an attempt to increase visibility, accountability, and legitimacy.

In fact, I don't think the question isn't so much how to design robust cultures that do not "deteriorate over time", but how to design systems that are amenable to reform despite "deterioration". Basically, I'm making the claim that that on the micro-level, that every day, or year to year life of an institution, negative effects will tend to out-weight positives. And I'm going to argue that from the standpoint of entropy. So in other words, sure, we want to create systems that are robust, as in they can maintain their culture at some set level, but it's even more important to ensure that we can "reset" the system at relatively low cost.

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