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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#111

Post by codygman »

fleitz wrote: post #95
moocowduckquack wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebody happy working in the new environment. If several senior developers leave because their attitude is not a good fit for new management, then the company may have to hire and then train new staff on loads of bespoke stuff without the people who wrote it being there. Who cares about getting people who fit the c…

It appears you've learned the lesson, having developers that write working software results in a more profitable company than having developers who remain in their seats for 8 hours a day. The key is to make the company culture fit those who write working software.

I would agree unless said culture is toxic or negative (such as racist, sexist, or any combination thereof).

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#112

Post by jessedhillon »

vacri wrote: post #87
jessedhillon wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From siblings to my comment: You can't tell them: They can only learn this through experience. Alternately they may be the sort of shop where average developers are perfectly satisfactory. read: The counter-party to your negotiation is not an honest/competent partner who may have reached a rational conclusion given their understanding of the situation. Also, exceptional talent doesn't need to be treated like this. Co…

None of what you have quoted particularly reads as 'punish the manager'. It's only your post-facto flavouring that gives it that emphasis. Pretty much all of it is "you have to look out for #1" - which I agree is not always the best advice, since it doesn't try for a win-win solution. Yes, there may be some residual punishment or vindictive feelings underlying some of the commentary, but the main focus of pretty much…

That's a fair characterization and you're welcome to that interpretation. I think I've explained my interpretation well enough that, even if you don't agree with it, you understand it.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#113

Post by yiedyie »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I think he should leave if he can, not to punish the manager, but in order to not punish himself.

I think managers should be wise this is their job, and developers don't need to make their job easy, they earn a lot of money anyway.

I see this trend lately where developers suddenly need to make everybody's job easier. Now developers need to make the HR people understand that... they need to make the stake holders understand that... etc etc Really?

Many programmers I know are very frugal and some single, and some are very resilient so they need to make a lot of people understand that there are limits and boundaries someone should not cross and that everybody should do their work.

Developers cannot do qualitative development in sweatshop environment.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#114

Post by x1024 »

lazyjones wrote: post #20
d0m wrote: post #4

I think explaining that "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. I would try to understand a bit more the concern about the forced 8 hours a day at the office. But obviously, if the manager is just dumb, just go to higher authority and explain that this manager cou…

> "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. One of the worst things a developer can do is to underperform on purpose because of thoughts like the above ("I could get a better job elsewhere, so I don't need to put in any effort here"). It leads to the worst possible…

When they say "casual atmosphere", you should think about people taking time off work to drive their kids to baseball practice. Not potheads arriving at 12PM at work.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#115

Post by d0m »

lazyjones wrote: post #20
d0m wrote: post #4

I think explaining that "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. I would try to understand a bit more the concern about the forced 8 hours a day at the office. But obviously, if the manager is just dumb, just go to higher authority and explain that this manager cou…

> "Most senors developers can leave and get another job with a 30-40% higher pay" and that "most current developers stay because of the flexible time and casual environment" is a very strong point. One of the worst things a developer can do is to underperform on purpose because of thoughts like the above ("I could get a better job elsewhere, so I don't need to put in any effort here"). It leads to the worst possible…

I didn't say "Work at 30-40% of their capacity". The job environment is obviously a very important factor when considering a position.. some developers preferred to have a smaller salary in exchange for a better work environment. This is what I think should be explained. Now, if a new manager comes in and remove that great environment, what in hell would you stay if you don't have the great environment AND you have lower salary than market standard?!

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#116

Post by ansgri »

RogerL wrote: post #81
ansgri wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, when it's time to move from research into production, this 'shaping' rather works: those 'good devs' with poor respect for authority move out of the team (either from the company or deeper back into R&D), where people who stay / newly hired readily agree to fulfill well-defined roles.

What "authority"? Different people have different roles. If I know tons about implementing caches, I probably end up making most of the decisions about that sort of thing. If you know a lot about scheduling projects, probably you'll end up doing a lot of that. A junior person probably won't get to make a lot of decisions, except in whatever rather small area they are contributing in. And so on. Management doesn't mea…

Maybe there's some linguistic problem (English being not my native), but I wrote about the power of making decisions, of telling you what to do and what not to. It really isn't applicable to junior positions, but if you're one of the most senior developers on a project, you might well doubt the competence of the project manager to make tech-related decisions. Micromanagement aside, you and PM may have serious disagreements on what technology stack to move to or buy-vs-build decisions.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#117

Post by collyw »

walshemj wrote: post #85
ropz wrote: post #14

What a bunch of spoiled, whining brats! Sure, you can only code for 4-6 hours a day, but why not honor your contract by spending that other 2 hours mentoring less senior people, trying to understand your employer's business goals, and generally trying to do your best to move your company ahead. Sheesh. By the way, the sheer arrogance of the question "How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege…

Yep the wording of the title reeks of a prima dona who has a massive chip on his (and I would bet that it is a male) shoulder.

I bet you would have caused an uproar of sexism if your comment had said the same about a female shoulder. Is there any basis for the sexist nature of your comment?

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#118

Post by walshemj »

collyw wrote: post #117
walshemj wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep the wording of the title reeks of a prima dona who has a massive chip on his (and I would bet that it is a male) shoulder.

I bet you would have caused an uproar of sexism if your comment had said the same about a female shoulder. Is there any basis for the sexist nature of your comment?

Decades of experience dealing with HR/IR issues Women dont "present" in the same way - that attitude expressed in the SO Q is very male.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#119

Post by allochthon »

watwut wrote: post #37
allochthon wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about punishing anyone, it's about compensation. Not so. Compensation is important if funding is available, but many devs love what they do and the service they're providing, beyond monetary compensation.

I love my work. I do not believe it is a good reason to pay me less and pocket the difference. The chances are that I will love work in other company too.

I'm not suggesting that they pay you less and pocket the difference; if it was bad, that would be reason alone to leave. Instead I'm suggesting that there are reasons to stay at one job instead of automatically changing to another, better paying one, and that people are not being foolish by remaining at the lower-paying one. This happens all the time when people are working on a startup, for example.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#120

Post by greg5green »

codingdave wrote: post #40

For those younger folk who ask why older management feels that the younger generation is full of entitlement - this scenario is exactly why. The young engineer feels that they are a gift to their employer, and should have the freedom to work as they want. The older manager feels that the work environment has a structure inherent within it, to which people are expected to comply. As the engineer, it is your right to q…

> As the engineer, it is your right to quit if you don't want to play by the rules.

I think you mean that it is okay to quit if the rules change by someone else's accord...

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