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The Death Of Expertise

thefederalist.com

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Re: The Death Of Expertise

#101

Post by teejae »

krakensden wrote: post #27
_delirium wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the article feels like he is the victim of resentment at the hands of his students (references to "intellectual valet" and so forth). I don't think students are necessarily in the wrong -- most are probably in college to get a job, and they're right to resent the stranglehold that universities have on social prestige and career respectability. They end up taking it out on the professors, because, well,…

> Danish university students tend not to have the same weird adversarial relationship with higher education My general impression is that Europeans pay a lot less for their higher education. I suspect that matters a lot.

Do not underestimate the price of taxes to pay for said education. It probably all comes out about the same. This assumes you also work and pay taxes to the entity that provided your education.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#102

Post by phaus »

barrkel wrote: post #100
blhack wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here: http://www.usnwc.edu/Academics/Faculty/Thomas-M--Nichols,-Ph... >Thomas M. Nichols is a professor of national security affairs in the National Security Decision Making Department, where is also the Course Director for Security, Strategy, and Forces. A former Secretary of the Navy Fellow at the Naval War College, he previously taught international relations and Soviet/Russian affairs at Dartmouth College and Geo…

Read some of his blog. From a cursory glance, I think he believes Snowden is a misguided traitor, Manning should spend the rest of his life in solitary, and Wikileaks is a Russian-funded intelligence front. These are strong opinions with, IMO, a heavy political slant. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, even when I disagree with him. But now it seems like he's complaining about not getting enough respect and at…

>From a cursory glance, I think he believes Snowden is a misguided traitor, Manning should spend the rest of his life in solitary, and Wikileaks is a Russian-funded intelligence front.

He's a professor at a military school, I'm not the least bit surprised that he thinks that way. I agree completely that it limits the extent to which we can trust him as an authority.

Manning's conviction was actually pretty fair IMO. He was acquitted of leaking the video evidence of a government hiding illegal activity; he was also acquitted of aiding the enemy because that assertion was ridiculous. He was rightly held to account for releasing close to three quarters of a million classified documents that contained no instances of illegal activity. Had he done his due diligence like Snowden, he should have (but probably wouldn't have) walked away. That being said, I would be happy if they paroled him ASAP. I don't think we should take some kid's life(35 years will destroy your life just as surely as a lethal injection) away for making a stupid decision when it didn't cause much demonstrable harm.

What I find most entertaining about this article is that his argument is basically "Young people have an inflated sense of entitlement and that's why they don't worship the ground I walk on."

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#103

Post by vellum »

krakensden wrote: post #27
_delirium wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the article feels like he is the victim of resentment at the hands of his students (references to "intellectual valet" and so forth). I don't think students are necessarily in the wrong -- most are probably in college to get a job, and they're right to resent the stranglehold that universities have on social prestige and career respectability. They end up taking it out on the professors, because, well,…

> Danish university students tend not to have the same weird adversarial relationship with higher education My general impression is that Europeans pay a lot less for their higher education. I suspect that matters a lot.

They do. Here's a chart that compares annual tuition fees at public schools circa 2008:

http://imgur.com/EIeOUQJ

US tuition was around $6000+, while most of the other Euro countries were well below $2000, with the exception of the UK at ~$4800.

source: http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48631028.pdf

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#104

Post by ElDiablo666 »

cashmonkey85 wrote: post #38
ElDiablo666 wrote: post #7

This is the same alarmist nonsense that's been floating around since forever under one or another banner. This time it's expertise; last time it was "the end of intellectualism" and next time it'll be "Are we heading toward a chasm at full speed because PhDs aren't choosing the president?" It's mostly intellectually embarrassing foolish nonsense. There's a significant difference between experts like developers, docto…

As someone who studied economics I believed I had well thought out positions before studying and wasn't sure how my opinions were going to change. It turned out all my theories were worthless compared to the combined knowledge of the field and the genius observations over the centuries. So your example of not needing economists is unconvincing. We do need to check up on them frequently though and no one should get a…

>So your example of not needing economists is unconvincing.

I don't need to convince anyone of needing economists. Economists need to convince the world of their necessity and have never done so, nor could they ever. Human beings don't need economists to tell them how to live their lives and until economists come up with a good argument for their authority, no one ought to do anything other than listen to what they have to say and possibly give it some thought.

Remember, none of this has anything to do with you and your theories and whatever else you think has any bearing on the structure of societies. This is about general human necessity. People don't need economists or any other social scientists. The best we can do is be helpful participants and try to use our knowledge to help those who might lack it.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#105

Post by jcape »

Niten wrote: post #62
na85 wrote: post #17

The claim that "expertise" is going by the wayside is absurd. What's gone by the wayside is the automatic acceptance of anything a self-proclaimed expert says as fact. Yes, wide access to Google and Wikipedia have aided this trend, and raised the layperson's knowledge level. These things have also raised the burden of proof of expertise. I've never even heard of Tom Nichols; I'm not apt to take what he says as fact j…

Apologies, but you're displaying precisely the kind of aggressive and arrogant ignorance that this article highlights. You trust Bruce Schneier because he's a popular figure. You said it yourself: "Tom Nichols is a nobody" due to a fatal lack of PageRank not helped by a non-unique name. While I admire Schneier greatly and am thankful that there is somebody like him working to popularize cryptography, computer securit…

...and here is Mr. Nichols explaining why even if Iraq did eliminate it's (nonexistent) weapons of mass destruction in 2003, the U.S. would've been right to invade because Saddam had been lying (about WMDs) and willing to invade his neighbors for so long:

http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/publications/journal/17_1/rou...

Given that Iraq was a belligerent in both the Iran-Iraq war and Kuwaiti invasion, that's reasonable on it's face. Of course, that presumes you aren't aware the U.S. supported Iraq in the former (to the degree that we ignored the only successful missile attack on a U.S. ship in history), and said "we have no opinion" two months before the latter. I presume an "expert" on IR and national security would know both of those facts---so why make that claim? Regarding Iraqi deception about WMDs... well, we know how that one turned out, don't we?

There are conscientious members of every university's IR staff, but there are also plenty of cryptofacists and priests-for-hire giving the discipline a bad reputation. I certainly hope students challenge this kind of man's pronouncements, because they are better humans and better thinkers for doing so.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#106

Post by [deleted] »

EvanMiller wrote: post #18

I think what the author misses is the large institutional structure that restricts the supply of experts and (as a result) enhances their prestige. These days, with the growing availability of technical information, existing systems of licensure, credentialing, and professionalization are breeding resentment on both sides of the lectern. The author's focus in the article is on the layman's resentment for the expert.…

[deleted]

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#107

Post by DasIch »

teejae wrote: post #101
krakensden wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Danish university students tend not to have the same weird adversarial relationship with higher education My general impression is that Europeans pay a lot less for their higher education. I suspect that matters a lot.

Do not underestimate the price of taxes to pay for said education. It probably all comes out about the same. This assumes you also work and pay taxes to the entity that provided your education.

Not for an individual as not everyone has the necessary qualifications to study at a university but nevertheless everyone has to pay taxes that finance the education of those that do.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#108

Post by allochthon »

Fomite wrote: post #79
tikhonj wrote: post #63

Sure, you're an expert. Which means you should have sound reasoning behind your position. And you should be able to explain your reasoning to somebody else. If you can't really explain your reasoning, it's likely that you did not think everything through--and if you did not think everything through, being an expert does not mean you're right! I think of this just in terms of myself . If I hold a position but I can't…

There are times when, to be blunt, you (hypothetical you) don't have the background for me to explain my reasoning - and certainly not in the timeframe of a conversation when I need to catch you up on potentially decades worth of research. It is possible, especially if you're not willing to either take some things as given, that you are not qualified to understand my reasoning. Because you are not an expert And that'…

Taken in sufficient context, I think your point is a good one. But I get the sense that this is not the main thing bugging the author; what seems to be bugging him is that he is under pressure to justify his positions to a broader audience than would have existed in the past, and he may be having a hard time doing that.

If he's making a point during a conversation with other experts about the cumulative costs in litigation of a certain policy implemented in some state in 1979, he's the boss. But if he's making a broad point about the welfare state, he's got a larger group of (well-informed) interlocutors to deal with and convince. I suspect he wants his expertise to carry weight on these larger questions as well.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#109

Post by jqm »

Personally I think he hit it right on the head in the second paragraph...

“appeals to authority,” sure signs of dreadful “elitism,” and an obvious effort to use credentials to stifle the dialogue required by a “real” democracy.

Yep. Public policy makers who consider themselves "experts".

Not to say that some people don't know more about world affairs than others. But my view is that this crowd are generally too caught up in their "expertise" to do what is proper. Witness the recent NSA behavior. They are "experts" in what we all need. Never mind that their expertise is dangerous, expensive and hasn't done much good.

Now hard science is a different matter. But this case isn't that at all. There may be some knowledge of world affairs but it is intrinsically linked with ideology and OPINION. Another "soft science" guy crying he just don't get no respect. And possibly a would-be dictator who isn't getting what he wants.

Re: The Death Of Expertise

#110

Post by gamerdonkey »

phaus wrote: post #102
barrkel wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read some of his blog. From a cursory glance, I think he believes Snowden is a misguided traitor, Manning should spend the rest of his life in solitary, and Wikileaks is a Russian-funded intelligence front. These are strong opinions with, IMO, a heavy political slant. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, even when I disagree with him. But now it seems like he's complaining about not getting enough respect and at…

>From a cursory glance, I think he believes Snowden is a misguided traitor, Manning should spend the rest of his life in solitary, and Wikileaks is a Russian-funded intelligence front. He's a professor at a military school, I'm not the least bit surprised that he thinks that way. I agree completely that it limits the extent to which we can trust him as an authority. Manning's conviction was actually pretty fair IMO.…

I think the author's biggest problem is laid out right in the article, though he attributes it to his "layman" adversary.

>They are instead rejecting anything that might stir a gnawing insecurity that their own opinion might not be worth all that much.

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