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How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

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Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#41

Post by ansgri »

allochthon wrote: post #31
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude. It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is…

OTOH, when it's time to move from research into production, this 'shaping' rather works: those 'good devs' with poor respect for authority move out of the team (either from the company or deeper back into R&D), where people who stay / newly hired readily agree to fulfill well-defined roles.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#42

Post by adnam »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

You're right. I think a lotvof developers don't even know they're born.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#43

Post by julespitt »

jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

Perhaps the most respectful and truthful way to handle this particular conflict is to assume some symmetry between "good developer" prevalence and "good managers" - that is to say that while it isn't discussed as often, good managers are as valuable and rare as the "10x developer."

The problem from the technical/developer perspective is a typical company - non-startup, non-technical core competency - lacks executive technical leadership. Therefore decisions about hiring management likely do not include technical understanding, and hence the managers aren't very likely to have any. So the best you can hope for (assuming you are a great developer) is benign neglect, where managers accept their ignorance and just keep the wheels turning.

But that's assuming extraordinary developers - most developers are by definition average, and therefore on average, the most probable situation just a mess of average developers with average managers not figuring anything out.

And while we can all be guilty here on HN of overstating our own abilities, I can say that people here seem to have a higher degree of understanding and wisdom overall (whether I agree with them or not) than I've seen on average in IT, so I have little doubt that frustrations with management can be heated, frequent and counterproductive to the business.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#45

Post by jayhuang »

Ugh. Another manager who is only concerned about hours worked. I had a similar experience at my previous job [1] where "hours in the office" became an issue. In my case it was "not doing enough overtime" and using commitment as an excuse.

In my case, I left without creating drama.

[1] http://www.jayhuang.org/blog/a-culture-of-beer-and-overtime/

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#46

Post by systematical »

hadees wrote: post #6

I think the simple way would be to just ask for a raise to market levels or in lieu of more pay you would take additional privileges such as being able to set your own hours.

This is the opposite approach to what many suggest (just leaving). Just as rational.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#47

Post by [deleted] »

lhnz wrote: post #24
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

I didn't personally find it very mature. It's just somebody parroting "How To Win Friends" with an authoritative spin. I found it manipulative and warped. This guy isn't happy with being told what to do. A conversation is very unlikely to sort this out. I don't think leaving is about "punishing the manager." This job will be more appropriate for somebody else, and this company will probably be better off with somebod…

[deleted]

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#48

Post by ansgri »

codingdave wrote: post #40

For those younger folk who ask why older management feels that the younger generation is full of entitlement - this scenario is exactly why. The young engineer feels that they are a gift to their employer, and should have the freedom to work as they want. The older manager feels that the work environment has a structure inherent within it, to which people are expected to comply. As the engineer, it is your right to q…

As the owner, it's in your interest for the structure to be challenged (sort of simulated annealing optimization), so you better create a way to question the very rules through these naturally stubborn goal-oriented managers. Probably by getting informally acquainted with developers.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#49

Post by jakejake »

I don't know about other devs but I sometimes worry about bad karma, which is why I try not to be an arrogant dickhead, even though I know I am important to the company. Just the pungent stink of both arrogance and professional ignorance coming from the OP kinda makes me embarrassed.

That being said, I don't consider it bad to speak up for yourself and it helps if you feel secure in your job. New management is changing things around. Instead of "dropping some knowledge" on this new manager about how developers must be given special treatment over other employees - maybe just explain that flex time is a major perk which you, personally, consider to be very important. If they insist you can't have it anymore then you can choose to adapt or find a new gig. You don't have to be the spokesperson for the entire industry.

Even in this market it's not impossible to find quality devs with a good attitude. I just find it better to conduct yourself professionally and not feel like you are better than everybody else. Conduct your business with integrity. Also keep in mind there's a 49% chance that you are a below-average developer.

Re: How do you tell managers that having good developers is a privilege?

#50

Post by thothamon »

allochthon wrote: post #31
jessedhillon wrote: post #19

I find it very sad that the top answer on stack exchange is a guide for how to have mature discussion, see the manager's point of view and collectively look for a solution -- while respecting his authority. But when you come to HN, 10-to-1 the comments are all about punishing the manager by leaving, teaching management a lesson, suggesting that maybe they only need mediocrity (in other words, developers as great as u…

generally espousing a naive us-versus-them attitude. It is nearly impossible to avoid this kind of attitude when managers see themselves in a shaping rather than supporting/facilitating role. I've seen good teams given a new, inexperienced manager who sees his job as turning certain knobs and "incenting" certain behaviors and outcomes, and it ends exactly like you think it would. The good devs leave, and the team is…

I'm not sure what you mean. All managers are paid to ensure better outcomes, where "better" is defined by the company (not by the engineers, except insofar as this enables the company's goals). Some managers are more effective at this, and some less. As a manager, sometimes it's better to have a cohesive team with consistent rules, even if some engineers will opt to work elsewhere as a result.

Although I am sympathetic with OP's feelings that a strict 9-5 rule is most likely unhelpful for everyone, I do think if the engineer took a confrontational tone, the manager would have no choice but to call his bluff. Any other move, and no one would take that manager seriously again. Therefore, the top answer in the original post is correct: ask nicely, and if compromise is impossible, start interviewing elsewhere. If he can really get a 40% bump, it's probably worth taking that.

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