Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious what programs people are writing where parametric polymorphism is so crucial. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of Go code (servers, web apps, data processing, etc.), and there's probably been maybe O(hundreds) of lines of code that were annoying or tedious because of a lack of parametric polymorphism. My suspicion is that what's more likely is that lots of people don't want to consider writing…
"But maybe there's a whole class of problem (actual problem, not a sub-problem like "I want to implement a container") that I don't come in contact with." i want to apply a transformation to every element in a collection i want to select the elements from a collection for which some predicate holds true
Go by Example
111–120 of 130 posts
Re: Go by Example
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's true that writing generic containers in Go isn't so great That's one hell of an understatement. > is it really sufficiently horrible to warrant that? A number of people obviously and repeatedly say that yes, a statically typed language without parametric polymorphism is sufficiently painful to use something else instead.
I'm curious what programs people are writing where parametric polymorphism is so crucial. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of Go code (servers, web apps, data processing, etc.), and there's probably been maybe O(hundreds) of lines of code that were annoying or tedious because of a lack of parametric polymorphism. My suspicion is that what's more likely is that lots of people don't want to consider writing…
The most common simple example is reasoning about the following pair of functions
f :: a -> a g :: Int -> Int
While (f > g) obviously, we can completely characterize the behavior of `f` while we know almost nothing at all about `g`. Up to non-termination, `f` must be `id` while `g` can be any recursive function on integers. g a = 3
f a = a g a = a * 2
g a = if (a == 0) then 1 else a * g (a - 1)
If you hold in advance the triviality of this example, then we can already notice how much better documentation `f`'s type provides than `g`'s. We also can produce a list of properties and laws about `f`'s behavior that we cannot easily do with `g`. This means that I'm able to reason about `f` better and more confidently.---
So we can take it up a notch. Consider Functors in Haskell. In order to avoid the full generality, let's just say Functor is the container interface and types like [], Set, and Map instantiate it. This gives them the function
fmap :: (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
where `f` is specialized to the particular container of interest fmap :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
fmap :: (a -> b) -> Set a -> Set b
fmap :: (a -> b) -> Map k a -> Map k b -- for some key type k
Now what can we reason about `fmap`s knowing only their type? Well, since the type `a` contained inside each container is unknown (or, to be more clear, any implementation of fmap must work for any type `a` and thus it's "unknown" in that we can't take advantage of information about it) then the only thing `fmap` is capable of doing is applying the first function to those types.Furthermore, since every mention of `a` vanishes in the result of the function we know that each value in the input container must either be transformed by the input function or dropped.
-- a specific example, not a general function
fmap f [a, b, c] = [f a, f b, f b]
In this way, parametricity has pruned down the possibilities of functions that can implement `fmap` a great deal. If `a` or `b` were specialized to specific types then this would not be the case as we'd have a large variety of specific functions that could apply to each one of them. notFmap :: (Int -> Char) -> [Int] -> [Char]
notFmap f [n1, n2, n3] = [f (n1 + 2), head (show n2), chr n3] ++ "hello world!"
Indeed, in order to ensure that type-checking `fmap`s behave correctly we say they must follow a few laws. First, they respect function composition and second they respect identity fmap g (fmap f x) == fmap (g . f) x
fmap id x == id x
And we only ever need to check the first one because the second one is already guaranteed by a more sophisticated parametricity argument. fmap f [] = []
fmap f (x:xs) = f x : fmap f xs
---The take away is that while you can definitely write something that "maps over containers" without using parametric polymorphism, you have a harder time taking advantage of parametricity to have the types provide guarantees about the safe behavior of functions. Types (and in particular type inference) can sometimes make things more expressive, but their primary power lies in making things easier to understand and reason about.
Re: Go by Example
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
"But maybe there's a whole class of problem (actual problem, not a sub-problem like "I want to implement a container") that I don't come in contact with." i want to apply a transformation to every element in a collection i want to select the elements from a collection for which some predicate holds true
Use a for loop. Stop thinking in LISP/Haskell/LINQ, start thinking in Go. Go is an imperative programming language. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Look at the code of the standard library to see how it's done.
I don't think generics are an imperative/functional thing so much as an important feature of any statically typed system.
Re: Go by Example
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious what programs people are writing where parametric polymorphism is so crucial. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of Go code (servers, web apps, data processing, etc.), and there's probably been maybe O(hundreds) of lines of code that were annoying or tedious because of a lack of parametric polymorphism. My suspicion is that what's more likely is that lots of people don't want to consider writing…
I think a big part of the issue is that in Java and C++, you really need generics a lot more than in Go. Without templates, you would not have any easy way of doing maps and lists in C++. There are no builtin types for those like in Go. The way the type system works in those languages also makes things very difficult if you don't have generics. Think about the sorting example I wrote earlier: https://news.ycombinator…
Actually, that's not a band-aid. It allows strings to be generic over allocators without suffering the performance penalty of a virtual call on every malloc and free. Go's solution would be to just take the penalty of a virtual call (as interfaces require virtual calls everywhere) and try to make it up with devirtualization optimizations and/or inlining.
> After all, nobody comes into every Lisp thread demanding that Lisp grow a type-checker.
That's because making a workable type system for Lisp is a very hard problem. By contrast, generics are well known at this point.
Re: Go by Example
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do realize that go has lambda expressions (anonymous, in-line, functions) right?
I do know this, but it is not sufficient to solve the problem we are discussing. (Or, to put the statement in the form of a question, how do you propose solving the problem using lambdas?)
Re: Go by Example
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious what programs people are writing where parametric polymorphism is so crucial. I've written hundreds of thousands of lines of Go code (servers, web apps, data processing, etc.), and there's probably been maybe O(hundreds) of lines of code that were annoying or tedious because of a lack of parametric polymorphism. My suspicion is that what's more likely is that lots of people don't want to consider writing…
I think the biggest advantage of parametric polymorphism comes from program analysis, not just increased capability. The notion of parametricity depends crucially on parametric polymorphism and is super useful. Parametricity is the property that says greater polymorphism means lesser variation in implementation. Highly parametric functions can be almost completely described by their types along meaning it provides in…
func id(t T) T {
switch t := T.(type) {
case int: return t + 1;
default: return t;
}
}
The ability to examine on types at runtime can enable some interesting programs, but it also means that you don't get guarantees like you do in languages like Haskell. An example of this biting someone in practice is this blog post[1], where the author reasoned that because a library function expected an io.Reader, all it would do is use the Read method as exposed by Reader. In reality, though, the function was able to branch on the type and determine whether it also exposed a Close method, and called that if it could. That kind of feature destroys the useful static guarantees provided by parametric polymorphism in other languages like ML or Haskell.[1]: http://how-bazaar.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/stunned-by-go.html
Re: Go by Example
#117It's Friday gents! No excuse to set aside Saturday and Sunday, you can easily go through these examples in two days and grok it. Go is that _slim_, and that's good! Guaranteed you'll find use for Go in one system or the other when you want easy deployment, fast development time and extreme speeds. :) (Disclaimer: I love Go and I hope it goes mainstream in a big way in 5 years)
One nice thing these examples also do is make it really simple for detractors to point out what they don't like about it. My #1 gripe about go, for example, is this: https://gobyexample.com/sorting-by-functions In a few other languages: // C++ sort(vs.begin(), vs.end(), [](const string& l, const string& r) -> bool { return l.size() When they fix this, Go might be the perfect language for me. Until then, I'm not touch…
L.sort(key=len)Re: Go by Example
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the biggest advantage of parametric polymorphism comes from program analysis, not just increased capability. The notion of parametricity depends crucially on parametric polymorphism and is super useful. Parametricity is the property that says greater polymorphism means lesser variation in implementation. Highly parametric functions can be almost completely described by their types along meaning it provides in…
I'm going to note that even if Go added some kind of parametric polymorphism at this point, it still wouldn't have the same advantages as parametric polymorphism in Haskell and related languages. In Go, you can branch on types at runtime, so in a hypothetical generic Go, you could write something which appears to only ever return its argument, but does something special if the argument is of a particular type: func i…
what :: Typeable a => a -> a
Here `what` is no longer guaranteed to be `id`. Instead, we can translate it like this what :: (a -> TypeRep) -> a -> a
where `TypeRep` is, as it sounds, a representation of the type of a returned dynamically. This means that we can do careful coercions to, say, be `id` unless `a` is `Int` in which case we add `1`.Suffice to say that the degree of guarantee breaking that this kind of code invites makes Typeable a very specialized library that's almost never recommended without a "unless you really know what you're doing" kind of warning.
Re: Go by Example
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the biggest advantage of parametric polymorphism comes from program analysis, not just increased capability. The notion of parametricity depends crucially on parametric polymorphism and is super useful. Parametricity is the property that says greater polymorphism means lesser variation in implementation. Highly parametric functions can be almost completely described by their types along meaning it provides in…
I'm going to note that even if Go added some kind of parametric polymorphism at this point, it still wouldn't have the same advantages as parametric polymorphism in Haskell and related languages. In Go, you can branch on types at runtime, so in a hypothetical generic Go, you could write something which appears to only ever return its argument, but does something special if the argument is of a particular type: func i…
I'm not sure why you bring this up - nearly every language that enables reflection lets you do this, including Haskell[0].
No decidable static type system can ensure correct semantics for all use cases, including even badly written code[1].
[0] And you don't even need reflection to do this, per se; it just makes it more convenient.
[1] One could design a static type system that did, but it would be undecidable.
Re: Go by Example
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm going to note that even if Go added some kind of parametric polymorphism at this point, it still wouldn't have the same advantages as parametric polymorphism in Haskell and related languages. In Go, you can branch on types at runtime, so in a hypothetical generic Go, you could write something which appears to only ever return its argument, but does something special if the argument is of a particular type: func i…
> In Go, you can branch on types at runtime, so in a hypothetical generic Go, you could write something which appears to only ever return its argument, but does something special if the argument is of a particular type I'm not sure why you bring this up - nearly every language that enables reflection lets you do this, including Haskell[0]. No decidable static type system can ensure correct semantics for all use cases…
You can always get around things, but languages that make a strong commitment to keeping reasoning as a priority are qualitatively different from those that do not.