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Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

sfgate.com

31–40 of 74 posts

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#31

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

If we follow your logic to its conclusion, San Francisco becomes a city of the uber rich, with the rest of the rabble scattering across the bay area.

So, what would that look like.. Some thoughts..

Good luck staffing jobs at the current SF minimum wage. You want baristas and servers and bar backs? And you want them to commute into the city? You'll get some (as you do now) but enough to run all of the cities establishments? We're talking a massive number of jobs. Sure, people will do it, for the right wage. So you're seeing wage inflation that will hurt small business owners a great deal.

Ethnic diversity would take a big hit. You'd see asian american and caucausions pushing out other groups that are on balance less affluent.

You can easily see NIMBY taken to an even further extreme that it currently is.

Commercial rents would presumably follow residential rents, further reducing low-margin businesses (like restaurants) in favor of high end retail and similar. (See: the Grove in Marina closing for this very reason).

I could go on, and certainly I am not listing the positive consequences of such a transformation. But I see strength through diversification and so I can't shake the feeling that this would be a weaker, less desirable San Francisco.

And if that were the case, if it truly did make it a less desirable place, well, now you have the positive feedback loop moving in the opposite direction, leading people OUT of the city until an equilibrium is found.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I, personally, don't feel that those with money should be able to run roughshod over those who don't. What other method of allocating scarce resources did you have in mind? Random selection seems less fair than high income, because income is at least somewhat correlated with producing value. I mean, if you disagree with this, you basically disagree with the free market. I agree our current market is imperfect but I…

> I mean, if you disagree with this, you basically disagree with the free market. I do disagree with the notion that a free market (not that such a thing has ever or will ever exist) always leads to socially optimal outcomes, yes. > I don't think randomly gifting scarce housing space to people is better. Nobody is suggesting random gifting.

Whether or not free markets are the best way to allocate housing is another debate in of itself. I think they are, but the question for you is what specific method of allocating housing would be better? The beauty of free markets is that they are often, given time, self-correcting (not in all situations, which is one reason we have regulation in general). In any other market, rising housing prices would stimulate developers to build more housing; the problem is that in SF, local govt regulation stymies expansion, both vertical and horizontal.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#33
post #9

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

As a recent nyc -> sf transplant, i think the best short term solution to making living in the bay area more affordable is to run one track of bart back and forth from 12am - 4am. SF needs a brooklyn, a real brooklyn, that you can get to when your shift at the restaurant/bar/other-service-job ends at 1am. Public infrastructure is a public good, and service industry workers can't be expected to cab it to oakland when…

From what I understand, Bart needs that 12-4 timeslot for track maintenance.

> Unlike some public transit systems with multiple sets of tracks on the same routes, BART doesn't have the duplication that would allow us to run trains on one set while performing maintenance on another. Third-rail power has to be shut down for maintenance crews to be able to operate safely and do the work that keeps the system safe and reliable. And the trains can’t run when the power is down.

- http://www.bart.gov/guide/latenight

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#34

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

Wow! You are really out of touch!

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#35
post #9

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

As a recent nyc -> sf transplant, i think the best short term solution to making living in the bay area more affordable is to run one track of bart back and forth from 12am - 4am. SF needs a brooklyn, a real brooklyn, that you can get to when your shift at the restaurant/bar/other-service-job ends at 1am. Public infrastructure is a public good, and service industry workers can't be expected to cab it to oakland when…

The biggest reason why I avoided buying a restaurant in SF is because there is no answer to the problem you outline, yet. Hiring and keeping employees was a clusterfuck. A lot of them lived in East Bay or Daly City, and this was a problem I saw something like 2-3 years ago. It's probably worse now.

I have a restaurant in East Bay and I have employees on the same side of the bay that will walk 15 more minutes to save 35 cents on BART fares. I pay them more than minimum wage plus overtime and meals, and I offer to pay the 70 cent difference every day since I don't want any of them walking alone too late at night. They just pocket the 70 cents and keep on walking. Compared to my day job and my fiancé's day job and how we'll uber instead of walking 15 minutes...

It's not just improving BART service, it's also about improving public transit in general I think - including to the point that fares drop. My cousin from Seoul completely flipped out on me shortly after coming to the US. He realized that he was spending ~$10 and a couple of hours every day to get to his school in downtown SF from Alameda. Incredibly rude awakening if you're used to one of the busiest and best subway systems in the world, I guess.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#36
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should the government subsidize "below market rate" luxury cars too? People have families and lives built around geographic locations, not cars. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't subsidize housing (I lean libertarian personally), but it's disingenuous to suggest this is like the car market. What's at stake for many people is a foundational part of their lives.

They can build families and lives somewhere else if they can't afford to live here, right? Do people have a fundamental right to raise a family in San Francisco rather than Omaha or Austin? Are other places so horrible that we should use taxpayer money to ensure that the largest number of people possible can live in SF? And we should make it easier for the moderately low income to live here rather than people with hi…

It doesn't apply so well. It's not just about the kids you raise. It's about the fact that people's parents and grandparents and uncles and cousins live nearby. It's about friendships built over years. It's about community. What you're saying is this:

Fuck those people - they don't deserve community nor the benefits of it they worked for, because they can't afford the prices you are willing to pay to kick them out (despite most of them being decent citizens with jobs and everything).

It's kinda messed up. Not saying I have a solution, just pointing out a real problem.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wouldn't mind if they would add some extra cars so it isn't standing room only during commute hours. How hard is it to add an extra car to an existing train? Raise my fare, I'll pay not to have to be packed in like cattle.

I'd imagine the length of the train is limited to the shortest platform it has to support. Not from SF, so not sure if there really is room for expansion. Frequency might be another answer - run the trains closer together, but again there are limits there too.

I think I've been on trains in Japan (albeit not in Tokyo) where the first two cars didn't fit on the platform, and passengers were alerted to switch cars if getting off at that station.

Not sure how well it'd work given commuter congestion, but it warrants some consideration.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#38

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

If we follow your logic to its conclusion, San Francisco becomes a city of the uber rich, with the rest of the rabble scattering across the bay area. So, what would that look like.. Some thoughts.. Good luck staffing jobs at the current SF minimum wage. You want baristas and servers and bar backs? And you want them to commute into the city? You'll get some (as you do now) but enough to run all of the cities establish…

Your concerns are really unfounded. Manhattan is basically already the way you hypothesize (with lower-income people commuting in from the other boroughs), and it works just fine.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#39
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a recent nyc -> sf transplant, i think the best short term solution to making living in the bay area more affordable is to run one track of bart back and forth from 12am - 4am. SF needs a brooklyn, a real brooklyn, that you can get to when your shift at the restaurant/bar/other-service-job ends at 1am. Public infrastructure is a public good, and service industry workers can't be expected to cab it to oakland when…

I'm really interested in the NYC comparison. I don't know anything about city planning or the history of it, but places like New York must have gone through similar transitions. What worked, what didn't? I feel like there has to be a lot of history to learn from on the topic.

Things that don't work: rent control, historical preservation restrictions, burdensome light air and view restrictions.

Things that do work: letting rich people move in, letting developers build what they want, and using that massive tax base to build high-quality public transit.

Re: Bay Area tech boom not cause of region's problems

#40
post #19

Although I generally agree with the sentiment of the article, I strongly disagree that we need specifically "affordable" housing. State-subsidized "below market rate" housing that enables people with low salaries to occupy highly-demanded space is incredibly inefficient and also likely doesn't serve the interests of the people it is supposed to help. I don't see why the ability to live in San Francisco is any differe…

Government subsidizes all sorts of things in all sorts of ways: Teslas/Priuses with credits, home loans with the mortgage deduction, student loans, Twitter moving to SF, and so on. Not saying these are good or bad, just indicating that subsidies are a pretty core part of our society and a case could be made for justifying or denying each. Some rationales for subsidizing affordable homes specifically: fewer slums, gre…

> greater social mobility for low income families (expensive areas also tend to have good schools)

This is an argument for subsidizing housing out in Santa Clara county. None of the public schools in San Francisco are particularly great.

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