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Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

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Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#41

Post by elohesra »

aaronem wrote: post #7
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #5

I like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that, I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made decisions...more likely to have…

A moment's thought, had you paused to engage in same, would've led you to realize that Ukrainian grandmothers today were, in youth, governed by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, whose regime was never particularly noted for the extent of the freedom of conscience and action it extended to its subjects.

Recursively apply Joyeuse's point until you hit a generation that wasn't coerced into making bad choices. Joyeuse's main point was that we can't blame a younger generation and simultaneously vindicate the preceding generation. This does seem to hold true.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#42

Post by Mikeb85 »

free652 wrote: post #31
Mikeb85 wrote: post #26

One thing to keep in mind about Ukraine, is that over half the country speaks Russian, and are very firmly pro-Russian. Furthermore, the current government was democratically elected (there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections), after years of in-fighting amongst the 'Orange Revolution' crowd. The protests also happen to be timed ahead of elections, no doubt in part beca…

I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth. Where did you get that notion? At least not in Odessa. Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.

> I wouldn't say that Russian speaking Ukrainians are "firmly" pro-Russian, I'd say its far from the truth.

Maybe not the best wording. While there is no doubt dissatisfaction with political and daily realities, most Ukrainians, certainly all the ones I know, still feel closer culturally to Russia than to the West.

Russian-ness and Ukrainian-ness aren't dictated by politics which are continually changing...

> Most people just want to have better lives. But their lives got worse with every year.

This is an issue in every country. Right now in half of the EU peoples' lives are getting worse (Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, etc...).

There are certainly world-wide economic variables at play, but there's also the issue that some pro-West agents try to hold the country hostage every few years... Russia bailed out Ukraine, and pretty much continually props up its economy. Look what the EU did to Greece and Cyprus...

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#43

Post by geoka9 »

philwelch wrote: post #34
Mikeb85 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The 'heroes' of the Orange Revolution turned against each other (see Yushchenko vs Tymoshenko drama) , raided the country's coffers, ruined its economy, and lost badly in the most recent elections.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Well... The new one is not exactly the same. He's a former felon with multiple convictions for violent crimes who, judging by the people he installed in key positions all over the country, still has connections with the organized crime.

Makes quite a difference.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#46

Post by joshdick »

hawkharris wrote: post #33

This raises a complicated question: assuming that the SWAT members are part of an immoral cause — not necessarily true, but let's assume it — should we blame the SWAT members...or the policymakers who command them to the front lines? The same can be said for U.S. soldiers who volunteer to fight in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Maybe they were unaware of the thousands of civilian deaths that would occur as a result of the…

This question was asked and answered at Nuremberg: It is not a valid dense to say you were "just following orders."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_Orders#Nuremberg_Trial...

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#47

Post by joyeuse6701 »

withouted wrote: post #28
joyeuse6701 wrote: post #5

I like the idea, there's a lot of thought provocation in it. Having said that, I don't like how the article belittles the riot police force. Aren't the older generation (grandma) at least partly responsible for the state in which their kids (riot police) are in? It's not like these 'thugs' were created in a vacuum and that these 'grandma's' are helpless. They were young, and they made decisions...more likely to have…

this is a very stupid comment, i made an account just so i could reply, first of all poland was never the same as ukraine under soviet rule. Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in ukraine. secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know o…

>Poland enjoyed much more freedom and much more livelier political culture that was ever allowed in Ukraine.

I agree, this was my understanding. Actually I reference my background because of the culture I inherited. There are several members of my family (70s up) who were children during WWII and did feel the yoke of soviet oppression (Siberian death camps in particular). The rest were murdered in Ukraine no less. That is the only reason I cited my background.

> secondly, i cannot believe someone from an ex soviet country could say that grandmas helped shaped the country in which they find their children in, i would like to know of your experiences in poland but in ukraine the only thing you shaped was how much alcohol you would be drinking during the day.

If not the previous generation, then who? The generation before? Clearly we are blaming the riot police for the calamity of the day (which is fair) but let's not forget how things came to be. If you were drinking alcohol to handle your depression in an oppressed state, then clearly by doing nothing, you did nothing to help the state of things.

>third, the riot police in ukraine is not what you might think of as "innocent" police protecting the state, they protests ignited after the riot police descended on peaceful students and killed several of them including a pregnant girl.

No one is pushing that narrative, if I implied such, I did not mean it. But realize, again, this did not happen in a vacuum, choices were made, or not made.

But my main point is this: Those are people, in that gear, who work for the state. If there is a takeaway from holding a mirror to them it's this: You're human, we're human. Don't dehumanize anyone, protestors and police alike.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#48

Post by aaronem »

elohesra wrote: post #41
aaronem wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moment's thought, had you paused to engage in same, would've led you to realize that Ukrainian grandmothers today were, in youth, governed by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, whose regime was never particularly noted for the extent of the freedom of conscience and action it extended to its subjects.

Recursively apply Joyeuse's point until you hit a generation that wasn't coerced into making bad choices. Joyeuse's main point was that we can't blame a younger generation and simultaneously vindicate the preceding generation. This does seem to hold true.

I suppose, in the wake of the Nürnberg Assizes, it makes sense to argue in this fashion. But I've never been all that strongly convinced by the argument that "only following orders" is never a defense, especially as applied to civilians; it seems to require of every human a degree of moral fiber which has never been commonly found at any point in history.

Had these grandmothers, in their youth, rebelled against their rulers, they'd have failed, and even those who survived would've been abused in every imaginable fashion. How does this imply that they're at fault for the abuse they suffer at the hands of their grandchildren's cohort today?

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#49

Post by moocowduckquack »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #35
moocowduckquack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there were even western observers who confirmed the fairness of the most recent elections Oh really? Summary statement: “Preparations for Ukraine’s parliamentary elections on 28 October are taking place in an environment of procedural irregularities, widespread vote-buying, limitations on freedom of speech, and a lack of effective consideration of election disputes.” Summary statement: “Mission Canada concludes that…

http://euobserver.com/foreign/29431 > edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent. Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways? Fact is, Yanukovych was elected in elections that were praised by the West -…

Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways?

The second election, obviously. In the first election he was not in power yet.

Re: Ukrainian Protesters Hold Up Mirrors to Police

#50

Post by Mikeb85 »

moocowduckquack wrote: post #49
Mikeb85 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://euobserver.com/foreign/29431 > edit - The link in the comment below is about the elections in 2010. The quotes above are about the elections in 2012. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine which of those dates is the more recent. Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways? Fact is, Yanukovych was elected in elections that were praised by the West -…

Perhaps which is more pertinent to a discussion about Yanukovych's 'dictatorial' ways? The second election, obviously. In the first election he was not in power yet.

The PoR also had the most votes in the 2006 parliamentary elections when Yushchenko was in charge. It's not a far stretch to assume that they may have fairly won in 2012 as well.

The point is western observers are quite selective in 'endorsing' certain elections over others. In 2010 they kept quiet because it was plainly obvious that Yanukovych was the winner.

Now you have protests (which turned violent at several turns) protesting a democratically elected government, conveniently just before new elections. With tons of Western media coverage again, and again the Western media vilifying Yanukovych and Putin...

So convenient.

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