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OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

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Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#291

Post by csixty4 »

tptacek wrote: post #90
calpaterson wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why is moving an unacceptable answer It seems likely that they don't trust anyone else to have physical access to the machines for security reasons. Their threat model probably includes national governments.

A somewhat related note about branding. My first "real" job was in the mid-90's; I was the first technical hire at a small Chicago ISP (EnterAct) that grew into a relatively large ISP (when I left, we were default-free peered to several tier-1 providers and had more POPs than I can name). It was great, and the team that started it --- two Big-5 accounting firm programmers --- was inspiring, particularly when it came…

Totally off-topic, but I remember those days. At some point, I got a copy of my customer record and saw "MCS bailers" in the referral field. Got a good chuckle over that. I don't even remember what KD did, but I remember choosing EnterAct because you were one of the last ISPs in the area that offered a dial-up shell. That was in the days when I had a Commodore 128 set up in my home office to mess around on.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#292

Post by lawnchair_larry »

openbsddesktop wrote: post #141

VIDEOS Exploit Mitigation Techniques: an Update After 10 Years (by Theo) http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ An OpenBSD talk by Michael Lucas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k

Oh look, it's the talk where Theo blatantly and shamelessly pretends he invented all of the mitigations that Spender and Pax Team had many years before anyone at OpenBSD even mentioned it. They pioneered stack randomization and ASLR? Are you serious?

Aside from OpenSSH, OpenBSD is not security relevant, and hasn't been for about a decade. So when they don't get the 20k, nothing of value is lost.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#293

Post by doktrin »

vinceguidry wrote: post #220
jethro_tell wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell the current mentality is: We don't need to accept feature requests or patches to get donors, we could just get more users and sell CDs "oh Look here's a poor idiot in the Mailing list that didn't become a UNIX expert before asking a question, let's flame the shit out of him." Alright Let's collect some money. Wanna know why? fuck you it! It just needs to be this way. Wanna help or suggest a solut…

I'm sure they have their reasons and they've already carefully thought through all of the most common suggestions. The project's been around for awhile.

Frankly, that sounds a lot like an appeal to authority.

"They probably are doing the right thing because they are who they are" isn't really a valid argument.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#294

Post by ajkjk »

Can someone explain why I would want to support OpenBSD?

I get, from the comments, that: openSSH is great (sure, I can believe it) and Theo is an asshole but you should compromise and give them money anyway.

I don't get why a parallel operating system ought to continue existing, especially one that comes from the same legacy codebase as several others. I also don't get why, if openSSH is so good, the goal isn't to write a new SSH or fund openSSH separately and drop the rest that can't be supported. Why does the world needs OpenBSD instead of having the talent focused on making a smaller number (..Linux) better.

Certainly the answer might be 'because that's what the talent wants to work on' but that's not a good reason to fund it.

I have also gotten the impression, from limited observation, that there are real problems in the open source community with too many people doing the same thing and not working together, and with people being jerks (or just generally anti-social or at least not-highly-personable) and making it hard to get involved or care about otherwise important projects. I don't think supporting Theo, from what I've read here, helps that trend.

I know very little. Can someone fill me in?

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#295

Post by vinceguidry »

doktrin wrote: post #293
vinceguidry wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they have their reasons and they've already carefully thought through all of the most common suggestions. The project's been around for awhile.

Frankly, that sounds a lot like an appeal to authority. "They probably are doing the right thing because they are who they are" isn't really a valid argument.

You must be a hoot at parties.

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#296

Post by justin66 »

nknighthb wrote: post #289
justin66 wrote: post #164

I get that a lot of people don't care. I even get that some people have an unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for, an expectation that must either not extend to their other charitable donations or serve as an indicator that they don't give a lot of money to charities at all. What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in informatio…

> unrealistic expectation that they should know how every dime of their donation is going to be accounted for This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations. In fact, it's done routinely by individuals like myself. > What I don't get is where people - presumably people involved in information technology - conclude that $20k/year is a lot of money to spend on electricity. Where I live, that wou…

> This is done routinely by both for-profit and non-profit organizations.

I wonder if any nonprofit, ever, has given a by-the-watt power accounting of the sort some of the people here are advocating

> Where I live, that would pay for the equivalent of 10-11 120-volt 20-amp circuits running at 80% capacity (per electrical code) 24/7.

aka several racks of equipment. My God, the audacity of OpenBSD developers, to ask for help powering this stuff!

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#297

Post by justin66 »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #292
openbsddesktop wrote: post #141

VIDEOS Exploit Mitigation Techniques: an Update After 10 Years (by Theo) http://tech.yandex.com/events/ruBSD/2013/talks/103/ An OpenBSD talk by Michael Lucas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXPV3vJF99k

Oh look, it's the talk where Theo blatantly and shamelessly pretends he invented all of the mitigations that Spender and Pax Team had many years before anyone at OpenBSD even mentioned it. They pioneered stack randomization and ASLR? Are you serious? Aside from OpenSSH, OpenBSD is not security relevant, and hasn't been for about a decade. So when they don't get the 20k, nothing of value is lost.

I just started watching these. About six minutes into the fifty minute talk Theo says "this wasn't our idea." If he's trying to convince people he invented that idea he's going about it in a subtle, reverse-psychology way. (he's not)

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#298

Post by midas007 »

OpenBSD overall is interesting. The installer alone signals how simple and elegant is the rest of the OS (take a look at the source [0]). A dozen basic questions give or take, and one can have a fully-functional box.

Revenue-wise, the best move would be for a shop like iXsystems, Pair or ByteMark to step up to cover costs. And, any shop that uses OpenSSH on a large scale should be able to pony up some cash to keep Open{SSH,BSD,CVS,{NTP,BGP,OSPF,SMTP,IKE}D} alive. For example, it would be nice to see OpenBSD on Amazon, and AWS might even be willing to fund kernel changes and more to accomplish that.

Finally: check out this handy script which makes it OpenBSD a whole lot easier to get started and complete common tasks. [1]

References:

[0] http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/

[1] https://gist.github.com/steakknife/6120072/raw/shave

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#299

Post by ars »

chrissnell wrote: post #153
sliverstorm wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the shortfall on the electric bill is inexplicably $20k Quick back-of-the-envelope: At $0.12/kWh, the shortfall is about 20kW of continuous power. Do they have significant HVAC requirements? I don't think I see 20kW of iron in the two racks that get pictured.

For every watt you put in, you need to cool that watt, which requires a high percentage of a second watt. Some of that equipment is almost 20 years old, maybe more. One those old machines could warm an office back in 1994. On top of the electricity for the servers and for cooling, there is also maintenance: replacing ancient drives and other system components when they fail (which may require paying out the arse for…

> which requires a high percentage of a second watt.

It's requires 1/3 of a watt. For every watt of heat you need 1/3 of a watt of cooling. (For typical A/C's.)

Re: OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding to keep the lights on

#300

Post by toyg »

ajkjk wrote: post #294

Can someone explain why I would want to support OpenBSD? I get, from the comments, that: openSSH is great (sure, I can believe it) and Theo is an asshole but you should compromise and give them money anyway. I don't get why a parallel operating system ought to continue existing, especially one that comes from the same legacy codebase as several others. I also don't get why, if openSSH is so good, the goal isn't to wr…

OpenSSH is one of many offshoots of the OpenBSD project.

OpenBSD being a full OS means that they need tools for everything. Occasionally, one of those tools will be superior to mainstream alternatives, thanks to the very strict practices of the project (which really sets the bar for any other project in the security field) -- OpenSSH being the most famous example. Even if their tools don't get adopted, a lot of their code and ideas do, benefitting the whole ecosystem.

Their practices also mean that a lot of the standard GNU userland is regularly audited with a degree of precision not found in more mainstream projects. The bugs they find will be fixed by everyone else, again benefitting everyone in the FLOSS world.

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