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Secret State of North Korea [video]

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Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#71

Post by dominotw »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #32

Towards the end of the film, they come to the conclusion that even though the collective mindset of NK citizens is changing, it won't necessarily result in a cultural revolution. It seems the primary thing keeping real change from happening is that North Koreans can't trust their family friends to not turn them in, and if they do somehow know who to trust, they can't gather in groups to talk or organize any activitie…

No. Because any action you take would endanger your whole family. This I think is the fundamental difference between North korean police state and other Stalinist regimes that crashed and burned in the 90's.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#72

Post by Loughla »

tomca32 wrote: post #22

While the footage is great, I hoped the documentary would be a bit deeper. It's still the same thing: "Look at poor North Koreans". The most informative video I've ever seen about NK is this lecture: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1 It's really worth watching it if you're interested in why and how NK came to be the way it is.

Read "The Impossible State: North Korea, Past and Future" for a better run-down of how NK came to be.

It only has one chapter on the 'holy crap look how terrible it is.' The rest of the book is about the history, NK's placement in world politics, and really how the nation came to be.

Fascinating, and avoids the stereotypical conversations about North Korea.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#73

Post by Loughla »

coupdejarnac wrote: post #12

There was a live chat today with the former CIA analyst Sue Mi Terry, and she said the average height of a North Korean soldier is 4'9". Not too imposing. They do not have adequate resources to feed their people, let alone to project power.

But they have one metric shit-ton of soldiers.

It's like ants; size of the individual doesn't matter when there's a million of you.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#74

Post by dailyrorschach »

dominotw wrote: post #71
notdonspaulding wrote: post #32

Towards the end of the film, they come to the conclusion that even though the collective mindset of NK citizens is changing, it won't necessarily result in a cultural revolution. It seems the primary thing keeping real change from happening is that North Koreans can't trust their family friends to not turn them in, and if they do somehow know who to trust, they can't gather in groups to talk or organize any activitie…

No. Because any action you take would endanger your whole family. This I think is the fundamental difference between North korean police state and other Stalinist regimes that crashed and burned in the 90's.

Not just your current family, but your children and their offspring with the three generations punishment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp#Human_r...

So you’re entire current family is sent, and then the next two generations will be born and live and know only the internment camp as the world.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#75

Post by bzbarsky »

jlgaddis wrote: post #42
Mikeb85 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The products on the shelves can't be bought, they're literally just there for show, as opposed to a normal store where you buy things...

Why?

You may want to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village for some historical examples of similar things....

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#76

Post by rossjudson »

bane wrote: post #18
spydum wrote: post #13

So far the most interesting point they have made is that these guys are smuggling in foreign media/tv and people are consuming it. The pitch is that the latest box office hits (sky fall 007 was mentioned) are the best way to influence N Korean culture. I guess I was surprised by this, but it does make more sense than trying to give them hard truth, which they would more likely reject due to their own cognitive disson…

> This makes me wonder how our own media is manipulated to influence political movements? Something I've found very interesting is watching foreign news media and what they report on and some of the externals that surround that reporting...then reversing those observations to my own country's media. It's remarkable how taking that outsider's viewpoint and turning it towards your own native media can help you to under…

Remarkable. The international version of Time is something I'm actually interested in reading, now. The US version? Not so much.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#77

Post by tomca32 »

Loughla wrote: post #72
tomca32 wrote: post #22

While the footage is great, I hoped the documentary would be a bit deeper. It's still the same thing: "Look at poor North Koreans". The most informative video I've ever seen about NK is this lecture: http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/292562-1 It's really worth watching it if you're interested in why and how NK came to be the way it is.

Read "The Impossible State: North Korea, Past and Future" for a better run-down of how NK came to be. It only has one chapter on the 'holy crap look how terrible it is.' The rest of the book is about the history, NK's placement in world politics, and really how the nation came to be. Fascinating, and avoids the stereotypical conversations about North Korea.

That sounds great and exactly what I'm interested in. Thanks for the recommendation.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#78

Post by belorn »

tptacek wrote: post #67
belorn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the posters propaganda would be true before 2001, but today I would not call it that. They simply represent a simplification of how an NK conflict with the U.S. army would look like. For example, U.S. Soldiers don't use pliers for torture. They chain civilians to prison ceilings instead and beat them to death. Alternative they use simulated executions, rape, or sodomized civilians like in Abu Ghraib. The post…

Interesting. What other North Korean state messages do you believe to be, at root, basically true and honest?

Interesting question.

Just my belief here, but I would think that a violent paranoid state with multiple grave human rights violations has likely a few enemies in the world. As such, several countries would likely feel much safer without the current government in NK.

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#79

Post by elipsey »

belorn wrote: post #44
elipsey wrote: post #11

This documentary is really good. It's impossible not to gawk like a tourist at the pathological outcomes of the command econconmy, the wretched poverty, and the Orwellian anti U.S. propaganda, for example posters depicting U.S. soldiers pulling out the teeth of children with pliers, and executing Korean civilians. The film is composed largely of real footage produced by dissenters. No matter how cynical you might be…

Calling the posters propaganda would be true before 2001, but today I would not call it that. They simply represent a simplification of how an NK conflict with the U.S. army would look like. For example, U.S. Soldiers don't use pliers for torture. They chain civilians to prison ceilings instead and beat them to death. Alternative they use simulated executions, rape, or sodomized civilians like in Abu Ghraib. The post…

These are good points. I suppose I was referring to the style and motivation of the material rather than it's factual content.

Must propaganda be factually false or grossly misleading? I don't know...

Re: Secret State of North Korea [video]

#80

Post by steveklabnik »

tptacek wrote: post #67
belorn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling the posters propaganda would be true before 2001, but today I would not call it that. They simply represent a simplification of how an NK conflict with the U.S. army would look like. For example, U.S. Soldiers don't use pliers for torture. They chain civilians to prison ceilings instead and beat them to death. Alternative they use simulated executions, rape, or sodomized civilians like in Abu Ghraib. The post…

Interesting. What other North Korean state messages do you believe to be, at root, basically true and honest?

The state-run media actually puts out their daily articles in English, they're pretty interesting to actually read.

Here's an example, from today: http://rodong.rep.kp/en/index.php?strPageID=SF01_02_01&newsI...

  > Above all, one must learn to see through the true nature of the freedom 
  > and democracy of the Western style. In a word, it is a sham democracy
  > and sham freedom. They are but a fig-leaf to cover up the reactionary
  > nature of bourgeois dictatorship and anti-popular character of the
  > capitalist system.
  > 
  > Much vaunted democracy of American pattern is no more than a slogan
  > for world supremacy, aggression and intervention. And their so-called
  > freedom gives a handful of the privileged a free hand to squeeze and
  > lord it over the majority of the popular masses.
I don't find this to be too particularly different from what many in our Left say, except maybe in degree. I remember reading another one recently discussing poverty statistics put out by our government, and they were source accurate. You just won't hear our media saying "16 million children live in food-insecure households," generally speaking. The spin is different, but the numbers are the same.

I'm not saying that I find broad agreement with the DPRK, but I do think that I tend to _also_ read what they have to say about news stories that involve, and it's fascinating.

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