How To Hire Outsourced Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#51

Post by nnq » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 8:48 PM UTC

Side question: don't other people also have serious issues with the practice of using tracking software that take screenshots, or even worse, webcam shots?

When I was freelancing I quickly refused a lot of potentially well paying jobs because of the requirement to use such monitoring software (their loss imho...). I don't have a problem with video-chatting with an employer about anything, or even with a temporary screen-share during a testing task or interview process, but having my actual work monitored like this felt like a total invasion of "my space".

I don't know about you, but doing it this "big brother-ish" way feels very demeaning and I refuse to work for people that treat me like that and I hate it that it's starting to become a "standard" nowadays, at least for "low level" work.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#52

Post by dkuntz2 » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 8:51 PM UTC

SheepSlapper wrote: post #45

TulliusCicero wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, unlike a programmer, a carpenter can't simply copy+paste work that someone else did and claim it as his own. It's a lot harder to fake tangible work in real life than it is to fake intangible work on the internet.

They can point at a house and say "I built that" even if someone else did, and how are you going to know the difference? The same way as you verify that someone in software did the work they said: put in the due diligence. That part can't really be avoided.

A programmer might not be allowed to show you their past work due to it being proprietary.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#53

Post by viseztrance » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 9:42 PM UTC

A challenge that involves creating a small app in just an hour or two, with tight guidelines to follow? Sure it's doable, but this says to me - I'm not looking for someone creative. I just need a code monkey that can follow instructions.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#54

Post by FeeTinesAMady » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 9:44 PM UTC

tonyarkles wrote: post #13

SheepSlapper wrote: post #9

Is anyone else tired of being assigned homework when applying for jobs? In both this and the author's previous article on hiring, he mentions giving people tasks to complete by a certain deadline as part of the hiring process. For someone that's just starting out as a programmer then maybe that's reasonable, but for those of us that've been in software for years, what's the point? You wouldn't ask a carpenter to make…

Well, for context... This is for hiring a freelancer on oDesk, and he's paying them to do the homework. It seems like a pretty fair way to evaluate a candidate. If you have a look at his examples, they seem like reasonable questions too; they're not "turning a string of numbers into math problems", they're practical demonstrations of applications of the different technology stacks. If I were hiring a freelancer for a…

SheepSlapper, your most recent post is showing up as dead. Might want to check to see if you're hellbanned.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#55

Post by AhtiK » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 9:46 PM UTC

nnq wrote: post #51

Side question: don't other people also have serious issues with the practice of using tracking software that take screenshots, or even worse, webcam shots? When I was freelancing I quickly refused a lot of potentially well paying jobs because of the requirement to use such monitoring software (their loss imho...). I don't have a problem with video-chatting with an employer about anything, or even with a temporary scr…

Using tracking software is insulting. It is usually for the same reason why physical stores are full of cameras -- making sure you do not steal. In the case of software development stealing as in making sure you are not using your time for the benefits of the client.

One can argue that any version control system that is used frequently enough is also a tracking software. In this case as long as your client is not stalking your commit logs to come up with made-up excuses not to pay; and you are actually doing your work (not spending some of the client-paid time for hobby projects) that should be perfectly fine.

Which makes me think that these days tracking software should become much less relevant for honest purposes because git, hg etc distributed VCSs encourage very fast and frequent commits.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#56

Post by jiggy2011 » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 9:56 PM UTC

AhtiK wrote: post #55

nnq wrote: post #51

Side question: don't other people also have serious issues with the practice of using tracking software that take screenshots, or even worse, webcam shots? When I was freelancing I quickly refused a lot of potentially well paying jobs because of the requirement to use such monitoring software (their loss imho...). I don't have a problem with video-chatting with an employer about anything, or even with a temporary scr…

Using tracking software is insulting. It is usually for the same reason why physical stores are full of cameras -- making sure you do not steal. In the case of software development stealing as in making sure you are not using your time for the benefits of the client. One can argue that any version control system that is used frequently enough is also a tracking software. In this case as long as your client is not sta…

It's probably for non technical clients who wouldn't know how to read a commit log, but could probably tell the difference between code on the screen and facebook. oDesk also offers a ton of other stuff from code like data entry,design etc.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#57

Post by InformalRelief » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 10:01 PM UTC

nnq wrote: post #51

Side question: don't other people also have serious issues with the practice of using tracking software that take screenshots, or even worse, webcam shots? When I was freelancing I quickly refused a lot of potentially well paying jobs because of the requirement to use such monitoring software (their loss imho...). I don't have a problem with video-chatting with an employer about anything, or even with a temporary scr…

During college I had a job in a coffee shop, and one day after a slow afternoon the bossman came in and later called me over to his computer, where he was reviewing his CCTV footage, and said "Look at how long it took you to make this cappucino, this is simply unacceptable!". I walked out.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#58

Post by gacba » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 10:20 PM UTC

JimWillTri wrote: post #48

This post doesn't contemplate one of the biggest problems on Odesk. The best of the "team" will perform the test. Then they put one of their low level team members on after the team leader passes the test. The only way I have learned to work around the problem is to require use of the odesk time tracker with WEBCAM. Can't hide who is doing the work with the WEBCAM taking shots of the person. :)

Another way to handle this is to NOT hire teams, but hire independents. That's what I do on oDesk, to ensure the person you hired is the one doing the work.

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#59

Post by donnfelker » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 10:25 PM UTC

nnq wrote: post #51

Side question: don't other people also have serious issues with the practice of using tracking software that take screenshots, or even worse, webcam shots? When I was freelancing I quickly refused a lot of potentially well paying jobs because of the requirement to use such monitoring software (their loss imho...). I don't have a problem with video-chatting with an employer about anything, or even with a temporary scr…

I can see why folks would be opposed to this type of software. I'm not a fan of it either except for the use during the initial interviews and reviewing work. After the contractor gains my trust I never check the screen logs and half (if not more) of my contractors do not not even use the software. They enter time as "manual".

Re: How To Hire Outsourced Developers

#60

Post by JimWillTri » Wed, Jan 15, 2014, 10:26 PM UTC

gacba wrote: post #58

JimWillTri wrote: post #48

This post doesn't contemplate one of the biggest problems on Odesk. The best of the "team" will perform the test. Then they put one of their low level team members on after the team leader passes the test. The only way I have learned to work around the problem is to require use of the odesk time tracker with WEBCAM. Can't hide who is doing the work with the WEBCAM taking shots of the person. :)

Another way to handle this is to NOT hire teams, but hire independents. That's what I do on oDesk, to ensure the person you hired is the one doing the work.

Unfortunately it can't be avoided. I've always asked the question and most will say they work alone but then proceed to have team members do the work. It can become a big waste of time.