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US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

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Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#81
post #43

A few thoughts: 1. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by Soverain from an adverse ruling by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals that had determined the Soverain "shopping cart" patent to be invalid on grounds of obviousness. 2. The Federal Circuit's holding by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on a…

Yes, Soverain is the quintessential patent troll. It did not acquire the original company that came up with the shopping cart idea. That thing had been sold at least four times before Soverain came along. No, shopping cart is not and never was a non-obvious technology. It's a clever metaphor for the very common pre-computer business method of maintaining order line records for unconfirmed orders.

grellas is describing what lawyers and courtrooms would think of the patent.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like currently it's far too risky to fight a troll in court even for a corporation, since treble damages means that if the jury (because 12 random people from the streets clearly know enough about technology, or can understand it well enough when it's explained to them, to pass a fair judgement) decides you're guilty, you're paying through the nose. The comparatively small amount demanded by the patent troll to…

The result is that only big companies can be patent trolls. It's still an improvement, but I'm quite sure it's not the intented one. By the way, small companies were never able to defend their patents anyway. That does not change.

> I'm quite sure it's not the intented one.

Don't be so sure - remember who makes the big political contributions.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#83
post #43

A few thoughts: 1. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by Soverain from an adverse ruling by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals that had determined the Soverain "shopping cart" patent to be invalid on grounds of obviousness. 2. The Federal Circuit's holding by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on a…

It is easy to say today that everyone knows what the concept of a shopping cart is and that anyone could have come up with the idea of applying that concept to online shopping.

This is why a common argument against software patents is, if not to abolish them, then limit their life cycle. 20 years for a shopping cart patent is way too long. Can you imagine if Friendster was granted a patent on the type of social networking that MySpace and Facebook implemented, and they were denied licenses to operate while the patent was in effect, they couldn't launch until 2022.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#84
post #43

A few thoughts: 1. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by Soverain from an adverse ruling by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals that had determined the Soverain "shopping cart" patent to be invalid on grounds of obviousness. 2. The Federal Circuit's holding by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on a…

The Federal Circuit's holding by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on appeal as a ground for invalidating the jury's verdict below. The court raised the issue on its own, concluded that the patent was obvious and invalid, and gave judgment for Newegg in spite of the fact that the jury at the trial court level had found that Newegg infringed.

A summary I read of the case a while back stated that the original trial judge did not permit the issue to be raised.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#85
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cut-and-pasted the original title, which now appears to have changed.

I thought cut-and-pasting the title was the only sanctioned approach to titles on HN and anything else was "editorializing". I've seen any number of more useful titles changed to match the linked article supposedly for this reason.

The policy is this:

1. If you used the original title, that was wrong and it needs to be changed to something more informative or less link-bait-y.

2. If you provided a more informative title, that was wrong and it needs to be changed to the original title.

I hope that clears it up for you.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#86
post #73
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they have an accepted meaning among practicioners of that art. That meaning is not more "real" than other meanings, though is more likely to be contextually appropriate. The fact that "reduce" is a term of art in programming for "debug" does not make somebody who uses it in cooking instructions wrong . Basically, what I'm saying is, the fact that you and your friends use a word a certain way doesn't automatically…

> No, they have an accepted meaning among practicioners of that art. You are getting close to the point here. Why does a term of art have a specific meaning to a practitioner of that art? Answer that, and you will have determined why words have meanings in any context.

It makes it easier for the practitioners to discuss their art. Jargon is useful if all parties understand the concepts and the forms (words assigned to the concept) used to represent them. Otherwise you have to expand the jargon into larger units.

Borrowing words across fields (because of similarity) can cause confusion. One person may assign a meaning from a different field than the other interlocutors are using.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#87
post #76

I think the best way out of these things is make software patents invalid after a short period- like 10 years.

10 years is still way too long for software, and even for most other things

Maybe, but just enough time to not blatantly rip off another product and not face any repercussions.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#88
post #43

A few thoughts: 1. The Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal by Soverain from an adverse ruling by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals that had determined the Soverain "shopping cart" patent to be invalid on grounds of obviousness. 2. The Federal Circuit's holding by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on a…

'grellas writes:

> 2. The Federal Circuit's holding [in Soverain] by a 3-judge panel had been remarkable and had shocked patent lawyers generally in that the parties before the court had not even raised the issue on appeal as a ground for invalidating the jury's verdict below. The court raised the issue on its own, concluded that the patent was obvious and invalid, and gave judgment for Newegg in spite of the fact that the jury at the trial court level had found that Newegg infringed. (Emphasis in original.)

George, it's not at all apparent that in Soverain the Federal Circuit raised and decided the obviousness issue sua sponte, that is, on its own. The court's opinion [1] expressly says, at page 5: "Newegg argues that it was wrongfully deprived of a jury determination of the question of obviousness, pointing to the extensive testimony on this issue at trial."

(Patent lawyers really would have been shocked if Newegg had not raised the obviousness issue on appeal.)

In its Soverain opinion, the Federal Circuit had previously explained, at page 4, that the trial judge, in the Eastern District of Texas, had (in essence) directed the jury not to consider the obviousness issue, because the trial judge had decided on his own that Newegg's evidence wasn't enough to allow a reasonable jury to invalidate the patent. The Federal Circuit thought otherwise.

The appeals court didn't send the case back down to the trial judge for reconsideration; instead, it decided the obviousness issue on its own. That's because under existing precedent, the ultimate decision on obviousness is reserved initially for the trial judge as a so-called question of law, and the trial judge's decision is subject to complete plenary scrutiny, known as "de novo" review, by the appeals court (and, theoretically, by the Supreme Court of the United States). (See pages 5-6.)

So, under existing precedent, it's actually quite unremarkable for the Federal Circuit to reverse a trial court on the issue of obviousness. (Usually, though, the outcome goes the other way: It seems more typical for a trial judge initially to conclude that a patent claim is invalid for obviousness, after which the Federal Circuit will reverse and render judgment that the patent claim was not proved invalid.)

As to your assertion that the Federal Circuit decision "had shocked patent lawyers generally": I didn't remember that to be the case, so I did a quick Google search. One well-known patent-law blogger -- who if I remember correctly is very pro-patent -- wrote a couple of extensive analyses of the Federal Circuit decision and its subsequent decision on rehearing [2][3]. This blogger has strong views that the Federal Circuit shouldn't engage in de novo review of obviousness [2]. He accused the Federal Circuit of having, in Soverain, "made findings of fact as if they were the trial court and decided the case on issues not argued by either party" [2]. That accusation, though, seems to me to be unsupported hyperbole, quite contrary to what the Federal Circuit actually wrote.

[1] http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/...

[2] http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2014/01/13/supreme-court-refuses-s...

[3] http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/09/04/is-soverain-software-v-...

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#89
post #34

I guess this is why HN mods edit titles on submissions (although the original title is just as terrible). The Supreme Court did not side with anyone; they denied a petition to the court, which is the case for the vast majority of petitions. If they did accept this particular petition, this would not mean that the Supreme Court sides with the patent troll and the world is doomed; it simply means that the case deals wi…

I cut-and-pasted the original title, which now appears to have changed.

I see that the title has been changed to something that's neither the original title nor the current title of the article itself, but to something more straightforward and unbiased. That's all well and good, but I do wish that the word "Newegg" had been preserved in the title, as I think of this as the "Newegg case"; and I think a lot of others do too. Preserving it would be better for people searching for the discussion in the future.

Re: US Supreme Court declines to hear appeal by patent troll

#90
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably a violation of copyright to copy an article and paste it here. Copyright automatically applies, paywall or not.

I would argue that the Fair Use Doctrine means it's probably not a violation.

You can't use 100% of something and claim fair-use, that's not how it works.
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