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What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

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Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#71
post #60
post #48

Here's data for Customer.io for comparison: * Currently based in NYC * Raised ~$700k. * Both of us founders are each @ $80k and have been the same with the exception of a couple of months at minimum wage. The goal with these salaries, was to be able to not think about money while working on the company. It kind of worked. 80k in NYC doesn't get you very far unless you're making huge lifestyle changes and not eating o…

> 80k in NYC doesn't get you very far wow

Especially when you consider that after taxes, retirement savings, etc, you're likely to take home less than 50% of gross. If you're single you can still have fun on 80k, but it's peanuts if you want to have a family and/or travel.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older founders have had more time to prove themselves and should in theory have a nest egg large enough to take a sabbatical to start a business. For example, when I decided I wanted to start a business, I talked with my significant other about it at length. When we bought a house, we bought a duplex where the other half pays the entire mortgage. Now, I'm actually able to focus on my business (or projects, or whateve…

Your comment summed up: "Look how clever I am!"

No, it's: know what you want in life.

If you want to be a founder, don't paint yourself into a corner with life decisions that prevent you from being a founder, and then blame ageism.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post will be downvoted to hell, but I have been wanting to say this for a while and can't find a way to contact you. (My email is my HN handle at gmail) You may or may not be right about this or the rest of VC-istan. But I LOVE the fervor and color of your posts. I love hearing a contrarian view. And I would love to buy you a cup of coffee or beer to say thanks for making my time of HN so much more interesting.…

I'm one of those who commented on your post yesterday, and I'm sure you placed me on the second bucket. I'm in no way connected to VCs. However, my post was overly snarky, so I'll take this opportunity to elaborate. I thought your post had interesting content and a thorough analysis. But the tone of your post was off-putting. You had a condescending tone and spoke in absolutes: "Everpix should have shut its doors imm…

I actually was just counting the 38 emails I got. I didn't feel like I could tell one way or another from HN comments or twitter, and I appreciated your thoughts. The snark was earned! (And I upvoted you)

About the tone -- I think you're right to criticize it. I liken the situation to competing against a sports player who uses steroids when you do not. The other player gets the press, the accolades, and the reputation even though he cheats. So when the player gets caught with a failed drug test and suspended from the sport, of course it feels great to be vindicated.

The Everpix team was dumping its product on the market and either lying or ignorant about it. They and the others left my team with the very hard decision to abandon our own sweat and blood for no fault of our own. We loved our product and wanted to be able to compete, but we saw we would not get a seat in this game of musical chairs. We resented the other competitors and their high capitalization, and we prefer to limit VC pitch tours. Failing to include that bias would have been dishonest, and the resulting tone was cathartic. I have no apology for it.

Swisspol's reply reinforced to me that the team was unaware of their underlying failed business model -- nothing in my analysis assumed constant costs or even distributions as suggested -- and selling a product for less than variable costs throughout 2013 was major business sin. It's forgivable for the first months or so, but the fact it persisted until the day they closed the doors is very telling. And yes, they should have closed their doors "immediately" when it was obvious from very early in the data they could not get positive margins, just as we did. Remember, this was a paid product and not an Instagram clone. My analysis was not hindsight, it was confirmation of hard work I did in April 2013. The VC-related emails had a similar tone attacking the analysis as "unfair" or "inappropriate" for a web-based startup.

Everpix should be a cautionary tale for other startups to make sure their gross margins are positive! My other research has a much more neutral tone, but in this case photos are very emotional.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#74
post #8

I've always heard that a founder's salary should be the amount that allows the founder to focus on the business. The concept of a super low salary seems to be focused on the 20 something single crowd. I have a family to support, so I can't take a super small salary and eat Top Ramen. This may be a subtle way that older founders are discriminated against. The story I've heard from founders who have families is that th…

Since everyone who has tried to correct your comment on discrimination has been downvoted, I will try to explain it is as neutral a way as possible:

If, for any reason, a person requires a higher salary, and if investors prefer people who can accept a lower salary (and this preference is a fundamental preference, not an attempt to rule out founders because of other characteristics), this is not discrimination.

To say otherwise, would be to say that the only way to avoid discrimination is to actively pay people who "need" the money more. Is that really what people believe is fair, or good business? Do I deserve less pay for the same work because I don't have a family?

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older founders have had more time to prove themselves and should in theory have a nest egg large enough to take a sabbatical to start a business. For example, when I decided I wanted to start a business, I talked with my significant other about it at length. When we bought a house, we bought a duplex where the other half pays the entire mortgage. Now, I'm actually able to focus on my business (or projects, or whateve…

Your comment summed up: "Look how clever I am!"

I guess you'd prefer people to share bad advice? Personally, I think I'm better off hearing from people who are clever. Nothing in his comment is impossible for anyone else to replicate.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#76
post #45
post #8

I've always heard that a founder's salary should be the amount that allows the founder to focus on the business. The concept of a super low salary seems to be focused on the 20 something single crowd. I have a family to support, so I can't take a super small salary and eat Top Ramen. This may be a subtle way that older founders are discriminated against. The story I've heard from founders who have families is that th…

> This may be a subtle way that older founders are discriminated against. I would prefer to say that this is a way that younger founders are exploited. And, it illustrates a bigger problem: If startup founders cannot afford to pay themselves a living salary, this limits startups to people who can comfortably afford to fail. (Essentially, the rich).

This certainly rings true.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#77

I suspect many founders of profitable non VC funded startups have small salaries and instead "pay" themselves through dividends as it can have tax advantages which might color the value of such graphs. That said, I believe such companies aren't always considered "startups" around these parts for some reason but that can be hazy when it comes to other people's surveys.

This was the very first thing I thought of. In order to take advantage of forms of income with a lower tax rate (eg dividends) you must also pay yourself a "reasonable wage" subject to regular income taxes. However, the tax code largely disincentives taking any additional compensation above that "reasonable wage" as vanilla income when you have other methods of receiving the money at lower tax rates.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#78
post #56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also more motivated to succeed. I have a wife and two kids (both under 5) and a big mortgage. I pay myself barely enough for us to get by (the lowest salary that I've ever earned). The difference is made up in savings and my wife's occasional consulting work. I'm the lowest paid in the company. The cost of failure is so much higher, which simply means you're far more driven to succeed.

Absolutely. When the fate of your family hangs in the balance, you're not going to walk away just because it stops being fun.

I'd argue that this can actually be a huge liability. Sometimes (a lot of the time, a majority of the time?) a ship's just gonna sink, and being overinvested in its not sinking can obscure the escape route, so to speak. Hard to imagine a scenario in which being able to shift gears/directions on 'go' isn't preferable to needing a specific thing to work out.

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#79
post #8

I've always heard that a founder's salary should be the amount that allows the founder to focus on the business. The concept of a super low salary seems to be focused on the 20 something single crowd. I have a family to support, so I can't take a super small salary and eat Top Ramen. This may be a subtle way that older founders are discriminated against. The story I've heard from founders who have families is that th…

you aren't being discriminated against, you are presented with a disadvantage. There is a huge difference. Also, no one wants to eat a lot of ramen and pay themselves nothing. You value providing for yourself and your family higher than your company, which is the right answer, be lucky you have your family and respect the sacrifices of others.. please

Re: What salary does the founder of your favorite startup get?

#80
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always heard that a founder's salary should be the amount that allows the founder to focus on the business From whose perspective? For you as a founder, certainly that makes sense (how else would you do it?), but requiring a higher salary is definitely a real disadvantage and your investors and cofounders are right to see it that way. It should surprise you not at all that having a high cost base limits your o…

You can certainly argue that the extra experience you have from previous work makes up for that relative to a replacement candidate who can work for a ramen salary. I'm not completely convinced that's true in the general case That's really the question. Is experience in industry worth anything in the case of a startup founder? You're saying you don't think so which obviously means it's a "worse" deal for investors. A…

> You're saying you don't think so which obviously means it's a "worse" deal for investors.

I did not say that. Experience is worth a lot, I suspect [1]. What I said was that needing a higher salary makes it a worse deal than not needing it. I think that was pretty clear. In fact, the next set of words after that snippet you quoted was:

> ; like you said, there are people your age (and presumably experience level) with war chests or breadwinning spouses

I was submitting that the choice between a 20-something with low salary requirements and an experienced hand with high salary requirements is a false one; i.e. the replacement ramen candidate may have equal experience. Lots of people are older and don't need salaries, and that's who you're competing with for limited investor resources. I know plenty of those people; it sounds like you do too. There's no law that says older people have to make more money.

And there's a very good reason why an experienced entrepreneur who can afford it should take less salary; their company is more likely to succeed because those leftover resources can be applied to the company. It even shows up in the data! So that certainly explains a bias against salary needs.

> what's happening is that they are being required to take on even more opportunity cost.

A separate point, but no investor cares how much opportunity cost you're taking on because it doesn't make the deal any better. There's no fairness rule at play here. Having a higher salary at your current job may improve your bargaining position [2] for a deal the investor already wants to pursue, but a) giving yourself a better bargaining position does mean the deal is worse for the investor, and b) it sounds like you're complaining that it doesn't improve your bargaining position, which sounds...good for the investor, no?

Best to stop think of your salary needs as some justified thing that flows naturally from your position of experience and should be somehow baked into the entrepreneurship process as a given, and start thinking of it as a exogenous negative you have to overcome with that experience and wisdom, not mention skill and hard work. Otherwise you end mispositioning your arguments like that.

[1] But don't know. I will say it's not some crazily hard calculation; for example, the analysis that came up with "The lower the CEO salary, the more likely it is to succeed." could simply adjust for prior experience (i.e Is this negative correlation because of stupidly overpaid 23-year-olds or are people being paid according to their demands and that isn't working out? Or maybe experience doesn't matter at all?). Then we'd know. So in a sense I agree that's an important question for investors to figure out ("How do I weigh the negatives of salary versus the positives of experience?"), just not the one I was addressing.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate...

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