Live data from Hacker News

Money can buy happiness

economist.com

141–150 of 172 posts

Re: Money can buy happiness

#141
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see either this or the original even remotely as a difficult question. Making 80% of the median income is completely within normal ranges; it seems to me it would be barely noticeable in both cases. On the other hand, the difference between US$100,000 and US$800,000 is gigantic, it's a complete change in lifestyle and security. Seriously, does anyone here actually find either…

Take a village. Everyone earns $100,000 except you. You earn $80,000. How do you feel? Now reverse it. You earn $100,000. Everyone else earns $80,000. How do you feel? Those base feelings explains consumerism and envy.

What? Does anyone choose the first option over the second one? The second one seems unequivocally better.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#142
post #11

I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but oh well: The cynic in me says such graphs are (figuratively) propaganda by the 1% (of 1% in wealth, not income), in that now we can define what the masses are "ok" with while we, the 1% of the 1%, can accelerate our gains further. Let the rest of them have crumbs and be content.

On a similar note I've seen it said the prevalent theory on money-happiness (that money can only buy happiness up to, conveniently, the middle class boundaries), is just propaganda to make the poorer classes feel better about their lives.

The common money-happiness theory seems pretty ridiculous. As though people are happy earning $65k a year and paying on their mortgage for 30 years, worrying about education for their kids, worrying about saving a few grand, worrying about paying the car payment, etc - versus making $500k a year and not having a mortgage at all, sending your kids to Stanford, and never worrying about The Bills.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#143

The richest in India are less happy than Brazil's poorest. But leave it to the economist to find that money makes you happy while ignoring that some countries seem much happier. If you were to pick a country where you could randomly end up anywhere on the income scale, which would you pick? Of the countries listed, I'd pick the United States, followed by Brazil, Britain and Mexico.

I'd pick somewhere in northern Europe probably. I might take the U.S. option if you could guarantee I was in the top 75% of the U.S. income scale. If I could really be randomly assigned anywhere on the scale, though, the U.S. seems too risky, because the low end of American lifestyles is really low, not even reaching the level of first-world poverty. Driving through parts of Mississippi was pretty surprising for some…

At the same time, your reference points are a very small % of the American population, not the bottom 25%. Only 5% to 10% of the poor live the way you describe.

America's poor is on average equivalent to France's middle class. Once our healthcare system is properly in place, that will be even more accurate.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/09/understandi...

The average person in the bottom 25% also collects over $30,000 per year in government benefits, from housing to food to healthcare.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#144

The richest in India are less happy than Brazil's poorest. But leave it to the economist to find that money makes you happy while ignoring that some countries seem much happier. If you were to pick a country where you could randomly end up anywhere on the income scale, which would you pick? Of the countries listed, I'd pick the United States, followed by Brazil, Britain and Mexico.

US? Mexico?! Ignoring the graph, you want to end up in a company with strong social services and wealth redistribution - Norway or somewhere similar. The US is not the best place to be poor. It also depends who "you" are. Are you black? A woman? Gay? Other countries may have a relative advantage over the US.

Why is the US not a good place to be poor?

The average poor person in America owns a car (75% of all poor people) and either owns a home or lives in a clean apartment (83%), according to the US Census Bureau.

Ever look at the massive wealth redistribution from the top 75% to the bottom 25%? Or the total dollar value of government benefits that the average person in the bottom quarter receives in the US?

It far exceeds Norway's progressiveness. In fact, America is the most progressive country on earth in terms of wealth redistribution, just take a look at the % of taxes paid by the top 1% / 10% / 25%.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd pick somewhere in northern Europe probably. I might take the U.S. option if you could guarantee I was in the top 75% of the U.S. income scale. If I could really be randomly assigned anywhere on the scale, though, the U.S. seems too risky, because the low end of American lifestyles is really low, not even reaching the level of first-world poverty. Driving through parts of Mississippi was pretty surprising for some…

At the same time, your reference points are a very small % of the American population, not the bottom 25%. Only 5% to 10% of the poor live the way you describe. America's poor is on average equivalent to France's middle class. Once our healthcare system is properly in place, that will be even more accurate. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/09/understandi... The average person in the bottom 25% also colle…

The claim that the American poor are wealthier than the French middle class is rather loaded, and looking at it from a specific set of norms. I've spent considerable time living in both the U.S. and Europe, and in some ways Americans are indeed wealthier, but in some ways even America's middle-class doesn't live up to what Europeans expect of a middle-class lifestyle. That report seems to be measuring solely ownership of some material goods. But some of them are negatives from my perspective! I do not want many of those goods, and many Americans are essentially forced to buy them, whether they like it or not. That makes the American of the same income live less well off, because they have to spend their money on them.

Example: you have to own a car in most parts of the U.S. to get anywhere (such as work), because transit sucks. You don't in most of Europe. When I moved from California to Denmark, I sold my car, dropped my insurance, and don't pay for maintenance anymore. That former money-pit is now extra disposable income for me. With the same income, I feel wealthier. In practice, this is a huge problem for my poorer American friends: car payments, insurance payments, car repairs, etc. are a huge issue for them. If something breaks they have to come up with money to repair it ASAP or they can't get to work and they might get fired. Whereas poorer Danish people don't have this headache; to get to work all they have to come up with is a bike, or money for the monthly transit pass (I pay $50/mo for mine).

Not to mention that Americans have an endless list of other expenses: they're expected to pay for their kids' college, their own health insurance, they don't get maternity/paternity leave or daycare provided, etc., etc. Even the middle-class Americans I know seem poor compared to an average Dane, in the sense that they don't feel economically secure, and are constantly stressed about money and the future. Whereas even a lower-middle-class Dane generally has smooth sailing and an economically secure lifestyle. Sure, fewer microwaves and cars, but who cares? Since this thread is about money buying happiness, it doesn't seem to have translated into Americans being happier than Danes.

But mostly what appalls me about the U.S. is that it doesn't really seem first-world if you walk into poorer areas. Stuff looks incredibly run-down, and people literally fear for their lives! Right in the middle of major cities, too. When I lived in Atlanta, I had to be very careful about which streets I walked on after sundown (and not only because of the tripping hazard, since the sidewalks were all in disrepair).

Re: Money can buy happiness

#146
Money can buy the appearance of happiness, but happiness comes from inside, not from outside. It's a skill one can develop.

Recommended reading: Matthieu Ricard's book "Happiness: A Guide to Developing Life's Most Important Skill"

Re: Money can buy happiness

#147
post #56

This is one of the big controversies in happiness economics. I wonder if this effect (which directly contradicts Easterlin's findings that money has no effect on happiness past a certain point; here, they contend that there is no saturation point and that happiness evolves with the logarithm of income) could be somewhat due to the way they framed the question: "assume you are on a ladder of happiness with 10 steps, w…

> people care more about how much they earn compared to their neighbors

Evolution should select for this "comparative success" behavior, possibly even if its only advantage is as a signal for mating.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#148
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stats actually seem to show that mobility is lower in the US than in the nordic countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility#Country_compari... Of course the US is a very different place, too.

Not just lower than the nordic countries but a lot of other countries: "There is more intergenerational mobility in Australia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Spain, France, and Canada than in the U.S. In fact, of affluent countries studied, only Britain and Italy have lower intergenerational mobility than the United States does." And also: "In spite of this low mobility Americans have had the highest belief in mer…

And when enough people believe it, it stops being a lie.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#149

The richest in India are less happy than Brazil's poorest. But leave it to the economist to find that money makes you happy while ignoring that some countries seem much happier. If you were to pick a country where you could randomly end up anywhere on the income scale, which would you pick? Of the countries listed, I'd pick the United States, followed by Brazil, Britain and Mexico.

US? Mexico?! Ignoring the graph, you want to end up in a company with strong social services and wealth redistribution - Norway or somewhere similar. The US is not the best place to be poor. It also depends who "you" are. Are you black? A woman? Gay? Other countries may have a relative advantage over the US.

A problem easily avoided by simply not being poor.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#150
Only as means to provide changes in people's lives, not necessarily only your own. It has nothing to do with possessions or consumption, and especially this exhibitionistic, public consumption which is pushed by the media.

Giving a new pair of boots or a new jacket to some poor school children in Nepal or India will definitely buy some happiness. New iPad for oneself, of course, won't. A long journey to different lands as a CBT for an addict will buy some happiness, while visiting the most distant and expensive to reach island in Pacific won't. Traveling remote Indian/Nepali/Tibetan villages will buy some happiness, while stupid yoga course won't.

I'm mountaineering guide and ex-addict, that's why I know.

Post reply on HN