Money can buy happiness • Hacker News Board

Re: Money can buy happiness

#81

Post by hosh » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:02 PM UTC

This poll is bullshit.

They are asking people to imagine what their life would be if they have more money. Of course they say they would be satisfied (up to a point).

However, what people say they want are not necessarily what they need or feel. Contentedness doesn't come from having everything you need, it's a feeling that can be generated from within and rested upon, whatever the situation you are in.

What generates a lot of confusion and suffering comes from the difference between the imagined happiness ("If only ...") and the ability to be content in the present moment. (And sure! "Present moment" can be anything from sitting quietly outside and listening to skydiving). As long as you have an imagined happiness, that "if only X, Y, and Z happens", then you will never be satisfied.

It's totally crazy. People can just be happy right now, and go on with their lives, instead of twisting themselves up inside.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#82

Post by randomdata » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:06 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #77

ForHackernews wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> incidentally is capped at a fairly low $128,000 Maybe they don't have data for people making more than that? There are relatively few people with incomes that high, and their time is probably valuable enough that they're disinclined to waste it filling out happiness inventories.

> There are relatively few people with incomes that high The chart is of household income, not individual income. There are plenty of households who break that mark.

If we ignore many countries where $128K+ is quite rare, at least. In the US, about 14% of the households earn that much or more. However, the breakdown is more interesting here: Only ~1% of households in the US earn between $125-130K, compared to ~5% earning between $35-40K. The groups do become quite a bit less representative as you climb the income scale.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#83

Post by quadrangle » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:19 PM UTC

Correlation ≠ causation.

If you live in a society where the propaganda tells you that wealth = success & value & esteem, then of course there's some connection. Maybe if we really lived in a culture where hoarding wealth was considered shameful, it would make people less happy to do so.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#84

Post by beefman » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:19 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #81

This poll is bullshit. They are asking people to imagine what their life would be if they have more money. Of course they say they would be satisfied (up to a point). However, what people say they want are not necessarily what they need or feel. Contentedness doesn't come from having everything you need, it's a feeling that can be generated from within and rested upon, whatever the situation you are in. What generate…

You have misunderstood. They ask people to report their actual income and their actual life satisfaction.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#85

Post by Dewie » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:20 PM UTC

adwf wrote: post #55

rtpg wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper is linked, available here ( http://www.nber.org/papers/w18992.pdf?new_window=1 ) The graph they have included the 25 most populous countries, and is already a mess (lots of overlapping things). The Scandanavian countries didn't even make the cut on that one, the Economist probably took the ones that were the furthest apart. Maybe if all the Scandinavian countries fused together they could have made it?

Yeah, it'd be interesting if there was a study on population size vs. happiness. I imagine there would be an inverse correlation (smaller population, more happy). But whether you could isolate the cause would be a different matter. For example: is Norway happy because they have a small population with massive, well-managed oil reserves to pay for their social services? Or are they happy because with a smaller populat…

> For example: is Norway happy because they have a small population with massive, well-managed oil reserves to pay for their social services?

The oil reserves don't pay for the social services. Some of the reserves are spent in the budget, but that is mostly skimming off the "interests", and there are restrictions put in place on how much you can use (maybe you already knew this; your wording was a bit ambiguous).

Re: Money can buy happiness

#86

Post by Sakes » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:22 PM UTC

Money can buy security and that security increases your happiness. Not having money can make you unhappy. Sustainable happiness is recognizing what is truly valuable in life and appreciating it.

For me this is:

1) No debt

2) Full stomach/quenched thirst

3) A warm place to sleep

3) Meaningful intimate loving relationships

4) A sense that I am valuable (adding value to the world or some subset)

5) Freedom to indulge my curiosities through exploration/experimentation/participation.

6) And in its most abstract definition, freedom to experience a spiritual life.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#87

Post by Dewie » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:23 PM UTC

adwf wrote: post #24

volume wrote: post #11

I may sound like a conspiracy theorist but oh well: The cynic in me says such graphs are (figuratively) propaganda by the 1% (of 1% in wealth, not income), in that now we can define what the masses are "ok" with while we, the 1% of the 1%, can accelerate our gains further. Let the rest of them have crumbs and be content.

The cynic in me is actually thinking it's interesting that the Scandanavian countries are left off the charts. They are usually touted as being amongst the happiest countries in the world, despite rather aggressive tax regimes to pay for it. Perhaps there is some cherry picking going on here? Either as propaganda to show that the US is the happiest, or to show that money equals happiness - which might not be true in…

The Nordic countries were featured in an article a year ago.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-b...

If there is an agenda somewhere, it's probably not on the part of The Economist (I don't know enough about The Economist to comment on more than their apparent public face overall).

Re: Money can buy happiness

#88

Post by eloff » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:28 PM UTC

leoedin wrote: post #3

The income scale is logarithmic, so the apparently linear lines that you see are actually curved. The returns in happiness per $ earned fall off significantly towards the top of the scale (which incidentally is capped at a fairly low $128,000). I don't really see how this new data contradicts the generally accepted view (mentioned in the article) that money increases happiness up to a point.

The graph shows a decreasing level of extra happiness per additional dollar earned, and caps out at $100k. The data here does not support the article at all, it supports the mainstream view. What a rubbish article.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#89

Post by vinceguidry » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:29 PM UTC

auctiontheory wrote: post #64

danielharan wrote: post #6

The richest in India are less happy than Brazil's poorest. But leave it to the economist to find that money makes you happy while ignoring that some countries seem much happier. If you were to pick a country where you could randomly end up anywhere on the income scale, which would you pick? Of the countries listed, I'd pick the United States, followed by Brazil, Britain and Mexico.

US? Mexico?! Ignoring the graph, you want to end up in a company with strong social services and wealth redistribution - Norway or somewhere similar. The US is not the best place to be poor. It also depends who "you" are. Are you black? A woman? Gay? Other countries may have a relative advantage over the US.

The US is still upwardly mobile. If you have any ambition at all, it's possible to rise. It's not easy, but it's far from impossible.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-ke...

This article on the poorest county in the US is very interesting, while they're very poor, it's not like anyone's starving, the food stamp program seems to support them well enough.

Re: Money can buy happiness

#90

Post by freshhawk » Sun, Jan 12, 2014, 8:40 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #81

This poll is bullshit. They are asking people to imagine what their life would be if they have more money. Of course they say they would be satisfied (up to a point). However, what people say they want are not necessarily what they need or feel. Contentedness doesn't come from having everything you need, it's a feeling that can be generated from within and rested upon, whatever the situation you are in. What generate…

It's not bullshit, it's interesting. But comparing this result to the previous results is not valid considering the very strong framing device they used to get that result.

They are basically getting people to judge their happiness against a hypothetical future rich self, when we already know that people have a bias to assuming more money would make them much happier than it actually would.

If I wanted to "prove" money made you happier I would construct a poll exactly like this (or at least I hope I would have been smart enough to come up with this). The fact that it worked is still interesting however.