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Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

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Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#91

What a hugely useful thing for you guys to do. Thank you, truly. The lesson I see from this: AWS hurts bad if you are using it heavily, but salaries... salaries kill. Automate, outsource and self-build as much and as long as you can possibly stand it, and then push on a lot longer than that.

Is the AWS cost so high because they primarily stored pics? If so what can be done to reduce this cost in terms how to store the pics?

We had already very efficient image optimization for full-resolution photos using 4X to 5X less space than competitors. Without that our AWS bill would have been insane. So as far as it goes for pure storage on S3, we were as low as possible.

However, on the database side of things, there was a lot of room for optimization (and we only got to some of it).

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#92
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I first read their story, I wondered exactly what you wrote: how much was their amazon hosting bill and could they have at least kept the lights on if they went with a smaller provider? I know when I was doing my music start up it would cost is many many times more to be on amazon than the two high power dedicated servers. I don't know the story in their case but I find it shocking how many high bandwidth start…

I think some people only see one side of the trade-offs here. A counter example would be a start-up I worked with that started out on a smaller provider. When we launched a beta of the application, we unexpectedly got invitations for national TV coverage with less than 24 hours notice. We asked the provider for everything they could give us, but they only had a limited amount of unused capacity themselves so there wa…

That's why you start with Amazon. And then once you reach scale you slowly start building your own private cloud. Its much more efficient and costs a lot less. We have been doing the same in our startup.

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#93
Fantastic.

I went through an exercise to recast the numbers as a bootstrapped company here in New Zealand. we don't, for example, have any healthcare costs, and items like legal fees, rent and salaries (including taxes) are substantially lower.

I have 3 Questions for the founders, if possible:

How much did you play with pricing to try to drive revenue per customer up? e.g. Did you consider/test no free customers, higher pricing and gold tiers?

The consultants cost of $272k seems very high - what sort of consultants was this spent on?

If you did it again as a bootstrap (i.e. founders are in control), what are the to 3 things that you would you do differently that would impact on costs and revenue?

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#94

I wonder why they didn't simply downsize on the hosting. I mean if that's a huge part of the operating cost, so much you need to shut down the entire operation, doesn't it make sense to go with a different host? even resorting to a dedicated box or choosing a different cloud provider? It's really hard to believe because I bet the end user didn't really give a damn about whether it was hosted on amazon or elsewhere. I…

I keep reading comments from this angle, so I'll throw in my 2 cents as an Everpix founder :) I can assure you that without the facilities of AWS, which saved us a ton of time and development overhead early on, there would have been no Everpix. Period. Actually, the very first Everpix was on Google App Engine, but that's a different story. As an early stage startup, whose core business is not building infrastructure,…

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm quite surprised to see how large the salary cost is. That and the 400k for consultants ( was this for computer vision experts?)

I'm kind of impressed looking at the landing video, it's a neat idea, it's sophisticated using CV to organize photos. However, the market just didn't respond enough to cover the payroll costs.

Did having a VC funding in anyway impact your decision making to grow faster than you should?

I guess it starts with an idea, does it fit? if you have VC money you can see the answer faster but I fear that it puts an expiry date on your product if the answer is still no by the time you can't find another investor. Shame because investors are not always rational. Maybe the next investor could've seen the vision behind your product and pushed. Sad to see a seemingly great product disappear from the market and reducing consumer choice because they had to 'go big or go home'.

I also wonder what it would've been like if you started in a market where tech salary was on the low side, such as Vancouver, BC, where there are laws set in place so that you can work your developers and designers to death out of fear of losing their job in the scarce market and not having to pay any bonuses or overtime.

I wonder what the outcome would've been if you weren't funded, and grew customer by customer. Doing this would've fine tuned the margin between cost and profit and forcing you to grow at a rate that is right for your size at the right price at the right time (where supply and demand curves intersect) just like mom and pop's business.

Thanks for sharing this boatload of information on how a company works for those that never ventured out to startupdom. It really is in the spirit of hackernews. Brutal honesty.

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#96
post #70
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My points weren't criticisms, they were merely highlighting the sentiment that comes from outside "the bubble" that is SV. It is unusual to people outside SV* to see such a high number (the % was just an additional data point that signals to non-tech people how much salaries constitutes tech startups). This has everything to do with the talent war - the market dictates that an engineer's salary must be $foo because F…

I am intimately familiar with high-level metrics at software businesses in many locales other than Silicon Valley, and direct cost of employees is the largest expense at all of them. (Not true generally, since marketing budgets get arbitrarily high at some firms, but true of all dozen or so that I have direct experience with.) It can easily range to 80%+. Also, the imputed salaries being paid here are very much not G…

I did a bit of Excel modeling of this, based on Everpix's hiring timeline and published numbers. My count is that they had 157 employee-months prior to shutdown at a fully-loaded cost of approximately $9,200 per employee-month. An employee-month is one month worked by a founder or employee, but not a consultant. Fully-loaded costs includes recruiting, healthcare, salary, and taxes, but (for the purpose of this calculation) does not include pro-rated costs for rent, hardware, software licenses, or what have you. Those are all numbers I'd be careful to bake into my planning as a founder but which I don't need to reverse the math here to salary packages.

I would ballpark the average package at Everpix as what Americans would understand as "$90k plus healthcare plus equity." This is not straight-line comparable to "$90k plus healthcare" at other US-based software firms, even those with baseline perks packages for working professionals rather than those competing in the Valley perks arms-race with Google and Facebook. For example, if one were to take "$90k plus healthcare" at an insurance company doing Java EE XL mappings every day, it is virtually beyond question that there'd be 401Ks with employer matching and whatnot in the picture as well.

If you were to do a straight-line comparison with e.g. Google or Facebook, this is substantially below their pure-cash offers for fresh graduates with no professional experience, and both would add both substantial cash bonuses and incentives plus equity grants plus perks with non-trivial cash value. The compensation packages employees capable of solo-shipping e.g. iOS applications or non-trivial image recognition software would be offered are substantially north of that. $140k cash-on-the-barrel plus industry standard perks isn't even an eyeraising number for intermediate engineers with no skill more specialized than shipping working software.

I'm mostly doing this math to say that "Lavish expenditures on employees were not a contributing factor here. They paid substantially below-market wages for employees doing similar jobs locally." I know that this might cause people who are not located in the Valley to feel a bit of heartburn given the absolute numbers, but that's another discussion entirely. (It should be noted that I live in an area where $90k cash packages would be unusual for engineers with 20+ years of professional experience.)

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#97

What a hugely useful thing for you guys to do. Thank you, truly. The lesson I see from this: AWS hurts bad if you are using it heavily, but salaries... salaries kill. Automate, outsource and self-build as much and as long as you can possibly stand it, and then push on a lot longer than that.

>The lesson I see from this: AWS hurts bad if you are using it heavily, but salaries... salaries kill. Automate, outsource and self-build as much and as long as you can possibly stand it, and then push on a lot longer than that.

Going off on a tangent here, but if (a) "software is eating everything" and (b) "salaries kill", wouldn't that mean a society of mass (30%+) unemployment in the future?

I wonder who would have the money to pay for stuff like Everpix or any other offering at that point...

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#98
post #83

So one of the things that's interesting here is the Amazon component. And the anonymity of Amazon vs a smaller provider. Let's assume for a minute the founders actually wanted to keep it alive (I'm guessing they didn't but that's a whole other story) You're generating revenue of say $40,000 and your Amazon costs are $30K. If you went to a small or mid tier sized provider and said "Good news/bad news. We're generating…

> But I don't know if/how you have that conversation with Amazon. I do. I've had a conversation like that with Amazon. What I found is the Amazon hosting team is excellent: they moved mountains for my account to get us to success. The Amazon account exec arranged immediate discounts and bridge services, even working through the holidays, then brought in multiple engineers for phone calls with me to teach me how to op…

Can vouch for this as well. So far Amazon customer service has been great for us as well. We just got introduced to our account manager a couple of months ago but she has been very helpful in getting us connected with the right people and helping us save money on our monthly usage.

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#99
post #34
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't these numbers also so high because they took VC funding? The VC wants to throw the company against the wall as fast and hard as possible to see if it sticks. That means no time to roll out custom infrastructure, and hiring rockstar consultants just to build the product as fast as possible. The idea is not terrible, it's definitely better than doing everything the right way (tm) for 5 years, just to find out th…

>That means no time to roll out custom infrastructure It is sad that the industry is so anti-intellectual that we're actually afraid of computers now. Giving dell a CC# and giving them your hosting providers shipping address is not a complex or difficult task. There is no need for "custom infrastructure" to run a trivial web app. You buy servers, you plug them in.

Depending on your service provider (hosting, msp, mttos, whatever), the up-front msa can be truly painful if you want "real" service. I.e., redundant power and multi-provider network connectivity with multiple connectivity points that have a massive capital cost but will be as reliable as your commercial or home utilities.

Couple the cost of establishing the relationship (especially with startup credit) with the NRC and MRC of hosting services, smart hands rates, reserved cabinet or cage space for those surprise boxes on the dock, and incremental pricing models, and it's very difficult to build out and manage poorly predicted growth in a financially constrained environment.

Saving money on this means you're allocating additional engineer hours to dealing with this yourself.

The 'middle road' is probably an operator in a decent NAP or superNAP that manages the big lease and then carves out a margin by offering smaller space, possibly even colocating your hardware in the same rack as someone else's (and maybe not in the same rack with your other gear), and charging more than a macminicolo but offering significantly improved and variable services.

There are a number of walls you can hit that will present themselves as an almost insurmountable obstacle when you own your own gear. There are mandatory professional services when setting up some gear (SAN vendors have been notorious for this) and it's just a bunch of attention you have to devote to something for which there is generally a good enough solution for a company that may not exist long enough to depreciate the servers that ate a huge amount of their startup capital.

It's not that we're 'afraid' of computers. It's like saying we were afraid of electricity or telephone lines 40 years ago. We can manage it, but it's almost irresponsible and risky to do so.

Re: Uncensored Everpix metrics, financials and slides

#100
post #83

So one of the things that's interesting here is the Amazon component. And the anonymity of Amazon vs a smaller provider. Let's assume for a minute the founders actually wanted to keep it alive (I'm guessing they didn't but that's a whole other story) You're generating revenue of say $40,000 and your Amazon costs are $30K. If you went to a small or mid tier sized provider and said "Good news/bad news. We're generating…

> But I don't know if/how you have that conversation with Amazon. I do. I've had a conversation like that with Amazon. What I found is the Amazon hosting team is excellent: they moved mountains for my account to get us to success. The Amazon account exec arranged immediate discounts and bridge services, even working through the holidays, then brought in multiple engineers for phone calls with me to teach me how to op…

I loved Everpix and wanted you guys to succeed. But when I finally heard the bad news, I thought Amazon should buy Everpix and make their cloud drive super awesome with it (Right now cloud drive is nearly terrible).

Everpix was a great product and I still can't believe there is no one who sees value in it.

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