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An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

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Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#21

Post by aragot »

privong wrote: post #12
aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

The letter focuses on trying to enact change in the US government with regard to internet surveillance, for everyone. It gives no indication that the efforts are intended only to improve the situation for American citizens. > ... and the US law protects you against surveillance. The recent revelations would suggest otherwise.

> It gives no indication that the efforts are intended only to improve the situation for American citizens.

It gives no indication for foreigners either. Actually the letter is very fuzzy about the demands to the government(s). It should list action points and criteriae so governments/crowds know when the movement will be dissolved and don't get afraid of the limits.

Moreover the way we leverage politics in France is quite different from the US ;) So we may need to adapt the mode of action to local traditions.

> The recent revelations would suggest otherwise.

The recent revelations suggest the law was broken, so at least you had some rights. But we foreigners have no law about not being spied by the US intelligence.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#22

Post by mhurron »

hdevalence wrote: post #20
mhurron wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears to be nothing but slactivism. At least everyone involved will fee like they did something.

Whereas you get the smug satisfaction of feeling superior to people who are actually doing anything at all.

Actually I get the smug satisfaction of not wasting my time.

This is not doing anything, but damn if you don't feel like it.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#23

Post by [deleted] »

aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

[deleted]

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#24

Post by catshirt »

hnha wrote: post #7

With all due respect, using Aaron Schwartz's case about copyright as motivator for the case against surveillance seems weird. Why do you even need some personification?

it didn't feel "weird" to me per se, i see the value. but, also with all due respect, i'm concerned the people who need to read this probably won't be at all familiar with Aaron and it might hinder the message.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#25

Post by pnathan »

pearjuice wrote: post #13

Call me skeptical, but this is yet another sign of the degeneration of Western civilization and the indoctrination of being apathetic. If you really think slamming a website online and calling people to post memes on Facebook will change anything but some link scoops on CNN, you are delusional. About 5 months ago I posted a related comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6147370 ) and it's as true as any other…

If sufficiently popular websites do a "black out" or whathaveyou, it becomes a major media action. Imagine if wikipedia and google simply returned a page that described the problem instead of what you looked for. This affects a great deal of lives.

That said, I don't think there's any substitute for people on the street and other people talking to the political & bureaucratic workers to change policy and procedure.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#26

Post by larrys »

hnha wrote: post #7

With all due respect, using Aaron Schwartz's case about copyright as motivator for the case against surveillance seems weird. Why do you even need some personification?

"Why do you even need some personification?"

People need to be anchored in something they can relate to or is memorable or of note.

Think of all the laws like "megans law" etc.

Somewhat common to use a person as a rallying point for a cause.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#27

Post by drone »

aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

You should care, because without any protection for our own citizens, there is no possibility of protection for non-citizens.

That being said, if you best wanted to ensure that no US agency ever spies on you, a good start would be for your government to prove it never spies on US citizens. That runs both ways: you want to trust us, we want to trust you.

So, it takes both: a strong localized protection, and a verifiable remote protection. We're working on our side of the first part, if you already have the first part on your side, the next best thing to do is start working on the second.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#28

Post by JRobertson »

pearjuice wrote: post #13

Call me skeptical, but this is yet another sign of the degeneration of Western civilization and the indoctrination of being apathetic. If you really think slamming a website online and calling people to post memes on Facebook will change anything but some link scoops on CNN, you are delusional. About 5 months ago I posted a related comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6147370 ) and it's as true as any other…

The average honey bee only makes 1/12th of a teaspoon of excess honey in their lifetime.

The average skeptic/cynic makes none.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#29

Post by sinak »

aragot wrote: post #21
privong wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The letter focuses on trying to enact change in the US government with regard to internet surveillance, for everyone. It gives no indication that the efforts are intended only to improve the situation for American citizens. > ... and the US law protects you against surveillance. The recent revelations would suggest otherwise.

> It gives no indication that the efforts are intended only to improve the situation for American citizens. It gives no indication for foreigners either. Actually the letter is very fuzzy about the demands to the government(s). It should list action points and criteriae so governments/crowds know when the movement will be dissolved and don't get afraid of the limits. Moreover the way we leverage politics in France is…

At multiple points during the planning calls for this campaign, we significantly changed our plans, the language, and our tact to make sure that our call was viewed as being considerate of international concerns. This letter originally had language to that effect, calling out GCHQ as a major part of the problem, and that surveillance does not only effect US citizens. For evidence of this, take a look at the "And Everyone Else Too" in one of the Facebook share graphics, which I added early this morning in response to concerns that that particular graphic was too US-centric.

When the banner goes live, we'll likely do IP-geolocation and offer users who are like outside the US a link to necessaryandproportionate.org, a petition to be delivered to international lawmakers.

However, given that many of the organizations behind the movement are US-based, it definitely still leans US-focussed. In some ways that's for the best: many of our organizations don't know how to be effective in changing laws in other countries. For example, during our planning it was suggested that we set up dial-in numbers for each country. After some research, we found that in many countries legislator's offices view calls as a nuisance and do not respond positively to them.

So, what I'm trying to say is: we're definitely trying to address this. And if privacy groups in other countries join us in setting up similar actions (as with the German rallies in solidarity with StopWatchingUs), we'll happily send international visitors their way.

Re: An Open Letter to HN from EFF, Demand Progress, and Cory Doctorow

#30

Post by AYBABTME »

aragot wrote: post #9

As foreigners, should we care? Next time someone organizes something similar, can they think of a worlwide action? Can they make something which doesn't sound like "Worldwide anti-american day" but rather "Worldwide day of support to the debate that US citizen started"? US citizens are only 313 millions and the US law protects you against surveillance. We, the rest of the world, are all subject to this surveillance i…

Might sound lame, but as a foreigner, I deliberately avoid posting my opinions on the subject by fear of repercussion for the day I'll cross the US border and they'll have decided unilaterally that my opinions are suspicious.

From my perspective, it's like they read everything, look at your Facebook posts, your emails and what not, trying to profile you as a threat. And when they do so, you'll get on some listed that's automatically generated by some crazy scheme, and you'll no way to change that because you're not American, you're just some unimportant foreigner.

So although I have very strong opinions on the matter, I'm effectively censored by fear of hindering my future.

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