Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mathematics can easily be applied to anything from cooking to theoretical physics. That doesn't make any of these things math or the other way around. You can use math to solve a programming problem (perhaps to a greater extent than in cooking) and you can express many of the problems in mathematical terms, but in the end math is an abstract tool and programming is not.
Beg to differ: http://www.amazon.com/Our-Mathematical-Universe-Ultimate-Rea...
Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
151–160 of 165 posts
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#152It seems you only care about the perceived difficulty. I know everyone is proud of their children, but there is really no need to equate programming with any kind of math, let alone any "levels". Programming can and does stand on its own, you don't need to legitimize it through comparison with socially-accepted math skills. The premise is flawed, in two ways. First, programming is not math . It can be math-y, but tha…
Mmm. Could we say that programming is: part codified reasoning, part automation, part creative practice, part figuring out how computers and networks work, part figuring out how your toolkit works, part figuring out how the platform your coding against works? I guess that it is only mathsy insofar as the problem domain is mathsy. I see a whole wave of non-sciencey people learning how to code in the near future. These…
Which, in the case of the OP, seems to be "My son is awesome."
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mathematics can easily be applied to anything from cooking to theoretical physics. That doesn't make any of these things math or the other way around. You can use math to solve a programming problem (perhaps to a greater extent than in cooking) and you can express many of the problems in mathematical terms, but in the end math is an abstract tool and programming is not.
I'm not sure there is such a difference between mathematics and an "algorithm". Time can be factored out of a process. A process can be represented as a sequence of objects. Take a function taking some arguments, one can describe this function in it's entirety by describing each sequence of objects generated by each possible input. Then if one wants to recreate the operation of the function one simply looks up the ap…
> I'm not sure there is such a difference between mathematics and an "algorithm"
Well, then we fundamentally disagree. An algorithm isn't math. Arguing about an algorithm mathematically, or even analyzing it at all as an algorithm might be related to mathematics, but the algorithm itself isn't.Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but I'm also skeptical of the idea that some math subjects are cognitively more intense than others. The "cognitive load" or whatever is really just a function of how much you've practiced and internalized that area of math. Calculus builds on algebra, sure, but once you've internalized algebra you don't have to "think real hard about algebra" _while_ you "think real hard about calculus." Running a 10k for the f…
As someone who studied math as an undergrad, I completely agree. As far as I can remember, Learning the Fundamental Theorem of Galois Theory was no more difficult to me than learning the Mean Value Theorem. But I guess my point is that programming at an "Algebra" level means you have very little knowledge the language, while programming at a "Calculus" level means that you have much more knowledge.
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#155I always thought phrases like "algebra 2" were signs of somebody who doesn't know very much. Is there some intrinsic "twoness" of it? Does it mean anything that you have supposedly spent a year of it already, and now it is the second year? Would not the topics of the second year vary from school to school? Similarly, "pre"-calculus. It came before calculus. Does that then include the ability to tie my shoes? I learne…
Agreed. Really, middle/high school level algebra ought to be called "simplifying equations" or "solving for a variable" because real math majors know that a college level algebra course is worlds apart and middle/high school teachers should be shot for letting their students think that they are competent at anything more complicated than balancing a checkbook. Similarly, pre-calc ought to be "concepts that we think y…
The Standard School Mathematics Curriculum
LOWER SCHOOL MATH. The indoctrination begins. Students learn that mathematics is not something you do, but something that is done to you. Emphasis is placed on sitting still, filling out worksheets, and following directions. Children are expected to master a complex set of algorithms for manipulating Hindi symbols, unrelated to any real desire or curiosity on their part, and regarded only a few centuries ago as too difficult for the average adult. Multiplication tables are stressed, as are parents, teachers, and the kids themselves.
MIDDLE SCHOOL MATH. Students are taught to view mathematics as a set of procedures, akin to religious rites, which are eternal and set in stone. The holy tablets, or “Math Books,” are handed out, and the students learn to address the church elders as “they” (as in “What do they want here? Do they want me to divide?”) Contrived and artificial “word problems” will be introduced in order to make the mindless drudgery of arithmetic seem enjoyable by comparison. Students will be tested on a wide array of unnecessary technical terms, such as ‘whole number’ and ‘proper fraction,’ without the slightest rationale for making such distinctions. Excellent preparation for Algebra I.
ALGEBRA I. So as not to waste valuable time thinking about numbers and their patterns, this course instead focuses on symbols and rules for their manipulation. The smooth narrative thread that leads from ancient Mesopotamian tablet problems to the high art of the Renaissance algebraists is discarded in favor of a disturbingly fractured, post-modern retelling with no characters, plot, or theme. The insistence that all numbers and expressions be put into various standard forms will provide additional confusion as to the meaning of identity and equality. Students must also memorize the quadratic formula for some reason.
GEOMETRY. Isolated from the rest of the curriculum, this course will raise the hopes of students who wish to engage in meaningful mathematical activity, and then dash them. Clumsy and distracting notation will be introduced, and no pains will be spared to make the simple seem complicated. This goal of this course is to eradicate any last remaining vestiges of natural mathematical intuition, in preparation for Algebra II.
ALGEBRA II. The subject of this course is the unmotivated and inappropriate use of coordinate geometry. Conic sections are introduced in a coordinate framework so as to avoid the aesthetic simplicity of cones and their sections. Students will learn to rewrite quadratic forms in a variety of standard formats for no reason whatsoever. Exponential and logarithmic functions are also introduced in Algebra II, despite not being algebraic objects, simply because they have to be stuck in somewhere, apparently. The name of the course is chosen to reinforce the ladder mythology. Why Geometry occurs in between Algebra I and its sequel remains a mystery.
TRIGONOMETRY. Two weeks of content are stretched to semester length by masturbatory definitional runarounds. Truly interesting and beautiful phenomena, such as the way the sides of a triangle depend on its angles, will be given the same emphasis as irrelevant abbreviations and obsolete notational conventions, in order to prevent students from forming any clear idea as to what the subject is about. Students will learn such mnemonic devices as “SohCahToa” and “All Students Take Calculus” in lieu of developing a natural intuitive feeling for orientation and symmetry. The measurement of triangles will be discussed without mention of the transcendental nature of the trigonometric functions, or the consequent linguistic and philosophical problems inherent in making such measurements. Calculator required, so as to further blur these issues.
PRE-CALCULUS. A senseless bouillabaisse of disconnected topics. Mostly a half-baked attempt to introduce late nineteenth-century analytic methods into settings where they are neither necessary nor helpful. Technical definitions of ‘limits’ and ‘continuity’ are presented in order to obscure the intuitively clear notion of smooth change. As the name suggests, this course prepares the student for Calculus, where the final phase in the systematic obfuscation of any natural ideas related to shape and motion will be completed.
CALCULUS. This course will explore the mathematics of motion, and the best ways to bury it under a mountain of unnecessary formalism. Despite being an introduction to both the differential and integral calculus, the simple and profound ideas of Newton and Leibniz will be discarded in favor of the more sophisticated function-based approach developed as a response to various analytic crises which do not really apply in this setting, and which will of course not be mentioned. To be taken again in college, verbatim.
From http://worrydream.com/refs/Lockhart-MathematiciansLament.pdf
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#156You can get by with an "algebra" level understanding of programming. However, concepts such as recursion, and other metaprogramming don't really make sense at that level. You can make rote crud apps with an algebra level understanding of programming.
I understand recursion and metaprogramming, I'm pretty poor on algebra. When it comes to deep level programming concepts, debugging complex apps - working on hard performance issues, I have no problem.
In that vein, I'm not saying you need to literally know algebra, just that it's a parallel kind of progress.
The point being that if you know algebra well, you can do useful things with math. In a similar vein, if you know functions well, you can do useful things with programming.
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#157Programming isn't analogous to math, programming is a communication language with really strict rules that uses math of all stages. Different tasks involve different math. I'll give some common examples for laymen, but they may seem obvious in hindsight: Programming a very rudimentary "snake" computer game is [using] using Algebra. If your son (or anyone) understands variables, assignment and adding them together, th…
Mathematics is also a "communication language with really strict rules". In one sense, programming often uses math. And math often uses programming. But, in a deeper sense, programming is math and math is programming. They're just different views on the same underlying ideas. They're different fields of study mainly because the priorities are so different. Of course, this doesn't mean it makes sense to map Objective-…
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#158Programming isn't analogous to math, programming is a communication language with really strict rules that uses math of all stages. Different tasks involve different math. I'll give some common examples for laymen, but they may seem obvious in hindsight: Programming a very rudimentary "snake" computer game is [using] using Algebra. If your son (or anyone) understands variables, assignment and adding them together, th…
A more important part of algebra is symbol manipulation, and understanding why some manipulations are valid and others are invalid. That symbol manipulation is the core of grade-school (or trivial) algebra. Being able to 'see' how to solve a problem, and being able to abstract general rules to solve whole classes of problems, all flow from that.
Of course, there's a disconnect between using '=' to denote a state of being (the state of equality) and using '=' to denote an action (the action of assignment). As an example, 'x = x + 1' is either trivially nonsense or trivially valid. Haskell actually uses '=' in the mathematical sense, to denote a state of being, and SSA languages such as Erlang come pretty close to it, I think.
Re: Poll: What level of math is programming roughly analogous to?
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can write plenty of Data Entry code and never use a single numeric function. Numbers are not math. (Anyway, I agree that the poll is strange.)
"God made the whole numbers; all else is the work of man." -- Leopold Kronecker