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Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

bitcointalk.org

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Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#61

Could someone with knowledge of Bitcoin explain what happens when a share of the pool hits 51%? Is this dangerous in some way? Edit: Thanks to those who took the time to explain. Very interesting.

Despite the good responses, there are two points that I believe are important that haven't been pointed out yet.

1. While a 51% pool operator could double spend, none of the participants can do that. The social incentives against a pool operator exploiting this power are very strong, however, because double spends are basically impossible to hide and would destroy the value Bitcoin - which is pretty much against the operator of a mining pool who is likely to hold significant amounts of Bitcoin herself.

2. There is a second possible exploit that is not so well known, which is that a >50% pool can capture all mining rewards. They can do so by never accepting a block mined by somebody else, and instead always mining on their private chain. This pool-specific chain will always ultimately become longer.

The loss of confidence associated with such an attack is probably smaller. So I would bet that if the pool operator has evil intentions, that would be the way to go for them.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#62
post #41

I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[…

> but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few.

Actually in this particular case, it's not in the hands of the few, it's in the hands of the majority.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#63
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can mine Bitcoin on your computer. The chance of discovering a 'block' and receiving the 25 BTC reward are however very low as it's very competitive. Mining solo, you're playing an 'all or nothing' game and you could run for months, even years without earning any reward. Pools are collections of people who mine Bitcoin. When a block is discovered by someone in the pool, the reward is shared amongst everyone who i…

Oh that's completely new to me. I thought that mining means that I need to let the PC run for hours to get some BTC someone send to me. Is the mining you're mentioning unrelated to another one sending your BTC? Can anyone "lucky" enough receive 25 BTC from nowhere, is that what you mean by `25 BTC reward`? How can people share a "computer cluster"/minin pool (that is what you mean right?). Do you mean that one person…

"Mining" is basically brute-forcing a value (the proof of work). Whoever stumbles on that value gets a previously agreed-upon bounty awarded, currently 25 BTC.

A lone miner has a very low chance of finding the value, but will get the full 25 BTC. In a pool, a number of miners combine their computational power, and if the pool finds the value they get awarded a fraction of the bounty corresponding to the amount of work they did (the number of possible values they checked). E.g. if A, B and C are in a pool, A verified 140 values, B verified 100, C verified 10 and one of them (who it was isn't supposed to matter) they'll get respectively 14, 10 and 1 BTC. If they had not been in a pool, one of them would have gotten 25 and the others 0. So being in a pool reduces your payout, but increases the chances that you get a regular payout.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#64
post #41

I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[…

> but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. Actually in this particular case, it's not in the hands of the few, it's in the hands of the majority.

No, it's in the hand of the pool operator not in the hand of the pool's miners.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#65

1. Buy millions of alt crypto coins (e.g., PPC which is less vulnerable to 51 attack), 2. destroy BTC by getting 51% control of hash pool, 3. profit.

Altcoin value is very closely linked to BTC value. Most (all?) altcoins are vulnerable to 51% attacks, so killing bitcoin would leave little hope of leaving value left in the altcoins.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#66
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...they can push arbitrary modifications into the block chain. In effect, they can do whatever they want. No, since who holds what coin is defined by consensus, which has to stretch out of the mining pool. If they arbitrarily gave themselves coin, for example, then no other client would accept that they hold that. See smtddr's reply for details of what they can and cannot do.

"If they arbitrarily gave themselves coin, for example, then no other client would accept that they hold that." Would this be detectable in practice?

This will cause block chain to split into two (we've already observed that a year ago due to sqlite glitch between versions) and the offender (ghash, 51%) will get exactly 0% in the block chain that every other client will be using.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can mine Bitcoin on your computer. The chance of discovering a 'block' and receiving the 25 BTC reward are however very low as it's very competitive. Mining solo, you're playing an 'all or nothing' game and you could run for months, even years without earning any reward. Pools are collections of people who mine Bitcoin. When a block is discovered by someone in the pool, the reward is shared amongst everyone who i…

Oh that's completely new to me. I thought that mining means that I need to let the PC run for hours to get some BTC someone send to me. Is the mining you're mentioning unrelated to another one sending your BTC? Can anyone "lucky" enough receive 25 BTC from nowhere, is that what you mean by `25 BTC reward`? How can people share a "computer cluster"/minin pool (that is what you mean right?). Do you mean that one person…

> Oh that's completely new to me. I thought that mining means that I need to let the PC run for hours to get some BTC someone send to me. Is the mining you're mentioning unrelated to another one sending your BTC?

I'm handwaving here, and this is how I understand it.

Yes. It is verifying transactions. Making sure that transactions are valid and people aren't double spending or spending money they don't have. As a reward for doing this miners who find blocks generate bitcoins from nowhere, the reward is currently 25 bitcoins for finding a block. It is luck based, you have to find the right hash. You just keep hashing away until you find the right one, I believe.

It's called "mining" because it's a reference to say mining for gold or other items of value. You can look in the right spot, but there's a bit of luck involved.

>How can people share a "computer cluster"/minin pool (that is what you mean right?). Do you mean that one person or company owns such a huge cluster and let's all members share 'virtually' a single 'Bitcoin wallet'?

More or less. They rewards are divided based on how much computing power you put toward finding that block (shares). Once it is found the rewards is divided up proportionally. In reality some pools have slightly different reward schemes, but I'll make it simple here. So, if the reward is 25 bitcoins and I put in 10% of the "effort" to get that 25 bitcoins, I would get 2.5 bitcoins even though I am not the one who found that block, someone else in the pool did. That lives on the pool's wallet. I then go and log into the pool's website and transfer those bitcoins from the pool to my wallet. Some pools have an auto transfer so that when you get to a certain amount it automatically goes to your own wallet. Those coins do me no good at all in the pool's wallet, until they are transferred to my own wallet.

Pools aren't run by companies, not that I've seen. They are mostly run by anonymous operators.

It is long, but I strongly recommend reading

http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/how-the-bitcoin-protocol-a...

See here for a more technical explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_protocol

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#68

In 2011, Jed McCaleb pointed out that bitcoin mining pools can collude. So in fact, Bitcoin is based on trust ... it is based on trust that mining pools are not colluding against you. His idea was to make this trust explicit. And that's the birth of Ripple. Ripple's consensus process is predicated on trust that other entities are not colluding against you. The Ripple protocol is not subject to the 51% attack that Bit…

Nice try Phil. Please get your Ripple propaganda off of HN. Ripple currency, XRP, is magicked up by Ripple Corp which owns nearly all of it and is the purest form of a pyramid scheme.

My post is not advocating that anyone invest money in XRP. My comment is about the Bitcoin protocol vs. the Ripple protocol's methods of reaching consensus.

The primary purpose of mining is to allow Bitcoin nodes to reach consensus about the blockchain. It is intentionally resource intensive. It takes 8-10 minutes. And it is subject to a 51% attack.

I believe that the Ripple protocol's method for reaching consensus is superior to Bitcoin's. It is orders of magnitude faster (2-5 seconds vs. 8-10 minutes). It is not subject to the 51% attack. It is not computationally expensive or resource intensive. It seems like a better design to me.

Ripple protocol =! XRP. If you don't like XRP, then don't buy it. Easy solution. Ripple is still valuable as a protocol, since it's currency agnostic.

@Goldenkey - While we're making demands of each other, please take your logic-free and malinformed vitriol off HN.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#69
post #41

I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[…

You might be interested in reading about The Iron Law of Oligarchy (an influential "social law" that was proposed in 1911 by Robert Michels)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy

It is a pretty dismal assessment of the likelihood that a democratic institution can avoid becoming oligarchic (spoiler: Michels believed it was inevitably impossible as the institution grew in size and complexity, years later he abandoned his anarchist beliefs and became a fascist in Italy)

There are a few historical counter-examples to the Iron Law of Oligarchy, but I don't follow the details of Bitcoin closely enough to know whether it is resistant to the factors Robert Michels described.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice try Phil. Please get your Ripple propaganda off of HN. Ripple currency, XRP, is magicked up by Ripple Corp which owns nearly all of it and is the purest form of a pyramid scheme.

Just to play devil's advocate here, is there any proof to that claim?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but Ripple Labs did set things up so they would start off with all the network currency, and still own the majority of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_(payment_protocol)#XRP .
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