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Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

bitcointalk.org

41–50 of 130 posts

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#41
I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[1] that it was this dynamics that propelled the neolithic revolution (the transformation of humans from nomadic hunters-gatherers to settled farmers): most people suffered as consequence (hunger, disease, less leisure), but a few benefitted greatly.

The same thing happened in the American Gilded Age. In that period of unprecedented (and largely unregulated) growth, much of the US population became quickly enslaved by a few members of an elite group, later called the robber barons (Rockefeller, Frick, JP Morgan, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Mellon et al.), and it took tremendous efforts by the American press and then by President Roosevelt (the first) to partially dismantle that semi-feudal structure and strengthen the central government, to free the populace from the stranglehold of the robber barons.

While a central power can be abusive, it is almost always better than feudal oligarchy, at least if it is governed more-or-less democratically.

So while BitCoin is an algorithm intended to avoid a single organizing entity, it is no replacement for a social pact, enforced politically by some fair means. Perhaps a better algorithm could somehow prevent any sort of concentrated power, but I doubt it. The desire for power (even with the best of intentions) is so essential to humans, that it probably cannot be circumvented by technology alone.

[1]: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/12/19/111219fa_fact_...

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#42
post #33

Can someone please explain what Ghash.io and BTCGuild are? I have checked both homepages and subpages, but still don't understand what it is. Ghash.io wants me to download a binary, the other one talks about a "mining pool". Can't figure what that even means.. Disclaimer: Bitcoin noob here

You can mine Bitcoin on your computer. The chance of discovering a 'block' and receiving the 25 BTC reward are however very low as it's very competitive. Mining solo, you're playing an 'all or nothing' game and you could run for months, even years without earning any reward.

Pools are collections of people who mine Bitcoin. When a block is discovered by someone in the pool, the reward is shared amongst everyone who is in the pool relative to their contributed hashing power (often minus a small fee for the pool operator).

Ghash.io is the largest pool, and the member of the pool control a good 35-45% of total hashing power on the Bitcoin network. A pool with >50% the total hashing power is bad, because the operators in charge of the pool could carry out malicious acts on the Bitcoin network without any members of the pool being aware they are contributing to these acts.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#43

There's no safety even if GHash.io is below 50%. How can we tell that GHash.io and BTCGuild aren't already colluding? They have 61% between them.

Even without that collusion, if you control 40% you still have a high probability of pulling off a double-spend attack. My recollection (sorry, I don't have a link, so I might be wrong) is that someone somehow associated with GHash.io already pulled something like this off when they were still below 30%

c.f. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327767.0

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#44
post #33

Can someone please explain what Ghash.io and BTCGuild are? I have checked both homepages and subpages, but still don't understand what it is. Ghash.io wants me to download a binary, the other one talks about a "mining pool". Can't figure what that even means.. Disclaimer: Bitcoin noob here

The way Bitcoin (and others) mining works is this:

Nobody mines on their own, unless they are running a server farm of mining gear. It would take too long to make a profit, and you might not ever find a block by yourself, depending on your hashing power and luck. Finding blocks are what generate coins. People combine their hashing power and mine in pools, that's what Ghash.io and BTCGuild are. These pools take all the profits and divide it up to all its members based on how many shares they submitted to find that block (basically, their mining power). Pools allow a more or less consistent payout for their miners instead of mining forever and getting nothing then once in a while getting a big windfall. These pools are run by an operator usually anonymous. These pools sometimes (usually) take a small fee, and some people donate as well to keep the pool running.

Pools are subject to DDoS and other attacks as well often.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#47
post #41

I don't know much about the particulars of BitCoin mechanics, but the general spirit of this story seems like a natural evolvement of any unregulated organization. People who favor unregulated markets/societies dislike the concentration of power in the hands of a central authority, but the reality is that in any social system there will always be concentration of power in the hands of the few. I've read a hypothesis[…

Proof-of-stake attempts better enforcement of decentralisation, but I think the various implementations are pretty immature.

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#49
post #33

Can someone please explain what Ghash.io and BTCGuild are? I have checked both homepages and subpages, but still don't understand what it is. Ghash.io wants me to download a binary, the other one talks about a "mining pool". Can't figure what that even means.. Disclaimer: Bitcoin noob here

You can mine Bitcoin on your computer. The chance of discovering a 'block' and receiving the 25 BTC reward are however very low as it's very competitive. Mining solo, you're playing an 'all or nothing' game and you could run for months, even years without earning any reward. Pools are collections of people who mine Bitcoin. When a block is discovered by someone in the pool, the reward is shared amongst everyone who i…

To be more explicit: if you have > 50% of the hashing power for a sustained period of time, you can with 100% probability dictate which transactions are accepted, which allows you to perform double-spend attacks essentially at will. [+]

If you control a significant percentage which is less than 50%, you can attempt to do this but it is both uncertain to work (on any given attempt) and costly if it fails. Note that you can take many bites at the apple if you're willing to suffer the opportunity cost, so if you have a sufficiently profitable transaction to cheat on, you'll come out ahead.

The most vulnerable players in the Bitcoin system currently are gambling sites, but in principle with sufficient hash power you can do this to anybody using Bitcoin. Gambling sites are particularly at risk because their intended behavior is swapping bitcoins for bitcoins very quickly, and if you can doublespend, you can swap bitcoins for bitcoins but then say "You know those bitcoins I sent you? Psych, I didn't have them, even though you thought I did." after you've been told that you lost a bet. If you win the bet, you simply don't rewrite history to invalidate your bet. Repeat as desired.

This is the planned and anticipated vulnerability in Bitcoin. Great news: it's rarely the planned and anticipated vulnerability that kills a system.

+ Double spend attacks are not the only attacks you can envision. For example, if you control 51% of hashing power for a month, you're capable of essentially invalidating all transactions globally in the past month, at a time of your choosing. Like, if an unrelated party Bob had been paid in bitcoin by his employer two weeks earlier, and Bob then attempted to transfer bitcoins to Mt. Gox to change into dollars, Bob's bitcoin client would suddenly tell him "Dude, you might remember that salary payment, but it never actually happened." and Mt. Gox would say "Umm, you don't have bitcoin to transfer in, what are you talking about?"

Re: Ghash.io very close to 51% of bitcoin pool

#50

In 2011, Jed McCaleb pointed out that bitcoin mining pools can collude. So in fact, Bitcoin is based on trust ... it is based on trust that mining pools are not colluding against you. His idea was to make this trust explicit. And that's the birth of Ripple. Ripple's consensus process is predicated on trust that other entities are not colluding against you. The Ripple protocol is not subject to the 51% attack that Bit…

Nice try Phil. Please get your Ripple propaganda off of HN. Ripple currency, XRP, is magicked up by Ripple Corp which owns nearly all of it and is the purest form of a pyramid scheme.

Just to play devil's advocate here, is there any proof to that claim?
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