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Software in 2014

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Re: Software in 2014

#91

Post by 72deluxe »

Oddly, he mentions three client-side areas: Web, iOS and Android.

Did anyone else notice that he didn't mention "THE DESKTOP" or any native applications? I don't know about you but I tend to use native applications every day and use the web for getting data and info. I don't use "apps" that sit in a browser all day. If he thought that the Web/iOS/Android system was bad, he should have actually put Web / iOS / Android / WindowsPhone / Metro / NatinveWin32 / Linux / Mac OS. Although the web was meant to fix all the problems with writing cross-platform apps, it hasn't. So I still happily use and write native applications for each platform instead of writing something for the Web that'll be out of date in a few years or will need testing in one of any 25+ combinations of browsers on different platforms.

Anyone else?

Re: Software in 2014

#92

Post by i2 »

ceautery wrote: post #64

"JavaScript is horrible." > function byNum(a,b) {return +a>+b} undefined > [5, 10, 1].sort(byNum) [1, 5, 10] No, it's not.

Except it is, because your code doesn't work:

  > [10, 1, 5, 1, 10, 10, 1, 5, 5, 5, 10].sort(byNum)
  > [10, 10, 5, 1, 10, 1, 1, 5, 5, 5, 10]
The right way is

  > function byNum(a, b) { return a - b; }

Re: Software in 2014

#93

Post by xd »

grey-area wrote: post #68
xd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check the manual; magic_quotes, mysql_escape_string and mysql_real_escape_string have already been deprecated/removed.

I'm aware of that thanks, as noted in the last line: Efforts are being made to clean it up, but for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag.

"for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag."

At the time it was reasonable .. but PHP evolved and learned lessons, it didn't just stop there as you seem to be saying.

Re: Software in 2014

#94

Post by weland »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #88
weland wrote: post #62

I think this paints a rather meagre picture of software development in 2014: > More or less everything is expected to talk HTTP, and it’s really easy to make things talk HTTP. A lot of things that shouldn't talk HTTP are expected to just because there's an army of programmers who don't know better. Also, it's actually hard to make things talk HTTP, partly due to HTTP itself. However, much of this complexity is hidden…

> In what freezing fucking hell is a dual-core, 1 GHz computer with gigabytes of RAM and tens of gigabytes of storage and 3D acceleration that can fit in my pocket memory-starved and CPU-starved? Sounds to me like you've never developed seriously on an ARM chipset. These devices are worlds apart from your standard desktop, there is a reason that both Android and IOS dropped Adobe flash. It's partly the hardware and p…

> Sounds to me like you've never developed seriously on an ARM chipset.

You're selling cucumbers to the gardener, I was actually one career choice away from designing chips, and wrote ARM assembly before there was anything such as a tablet.

A mobile phone is slow in comparison to a desktop, but not slow enough to afford an excuse for lagging in most of today's mobile applications. If a Facebook client, a mail application, a simple 2D game or a music player lags on such a mobile phone, it does so because it's a piece of crap.

Re: Software in 2014

#95

Post by weland »

revelation wrote: post #90
jokoon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what freezing fucking hell is a dual-core, 1 GHz computer with gigabytes of RAM and tens of gigabytes of storage and 3D acceleration that can fit in my pocket memory-starved and CPU-starved? Those CPU don't have as much cache memory (which is vital for a CPU to be fast), are very low powered, and not cooled by any fan. Even my $50 nokia can do 3D, 3D acceleration doesn't mean it's a fast device. CPU frequency do…

Yes, we desperately need the "mobile is the new desktop computer" meme to die. You get what you pay for, and a CPU that barely consumes a watt will not deliver desktop performance, no matter the cores, memory or frequency. That said, compared to actual CPU- and memory-starved embedded systems, mobile is a freaking race car. If you measure your memory in multiples of megabyte, you need not apply. Given that, the perfo…

> That said, compared to actual CPU- and memory-starved embedded systems, mobile is a freaking race car. If you measure your memory in multiples of megabyte, you need not apply. Given that, the performance situation on mobile is rather appalling.

YES! Maybe it's my use of the word "computer" above? I didn't want to imply one should expect the same performance from a mobile phone that they expect from a desktop. I called it a computer because it computes, not because it qualifies for being put in a big case with keyboard in front of it.

Re: Software in 2014

#96

Post by ksk »

72deluxe wrote: post #91

Oddly, he mentions three client-side areas: Web, iOS and Android. Did anyone else notice that he didn't mention "THE DESKTOP" or any native applications? I don't know about you but I tend to use native applications every day and use the web for getting data and info. I don't use "apps" that sit in a browser all day. If he thought that the Web/iOS/Android system was bad, he should have actually put Web / iOS / Android…

Given the hundreds of millions of Windows users, can you think of thousands (or even hundreds) of Small Businesses making money selling applications to Windows users? The only ones that I know of are large companies - Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, Adobe, VMWare, etc. And if you include the parasites of the software world there are the companies like Symantec, Kaspersky and their ilk. But those are all giant companies.

Re: Software in 2014

#97

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #88
weland wrote: post #62

I think this paints a rather meagre picture of software development in 2014: > More or less everything is expected to talk HTTP, and it’s really easy to make things talk HTTP. A lot of things that shouldn't talk HTTP are expected to just because there's an army of programmers who don't know better. Also, it's actually hard to make things talk HTTP, partly due to HTTP itself. However, much of this complexity is hidden…

> In what freezing fucking hell is a dual-core, 1 GHz computer with gigabytes of RAM and tens of gigabytes of storage and 3D acceleration that can fit in my pocket memory-starved and CPU-starved? Sounds to me like you've never developed seriously on an ARM chipset. These devices are worlds apart from your standard desktop, there is a reason that both Android and IOS dropped Adobe flash. It's partly the hardware and p…

Supposedly (and I'm being quite serious) the Surface 2 plays flash websites quite nicely in IE.

Re: Software in 2014

#98

Post by 72deluxe »

ksk wrote: post #96
72deluxe wrote: post #91

Oddly, he mentions three client-side areas: Web, iOS and Android. Did anyone else notice that he didn't mention "THE DESKTOP" or any native applications? I don't know about you but I tend to use native applications every day and use the web for getting data and info. I don't use "apps" that sit in a browser all day. If he thought that the Web/iOS/Android system was bad, he should have actually put Web / iOS / Android…

Given the hundreds of millions of Windows users, can you think of thousands (or even hundreds) of Small Businesses making money selling applications to Windows users? The only ones that I know of are large companies - Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, Adobe, VMWare, etc. And if you include the parasites of the software world there are the companies like Symantec, Kaspersky and their ilk. But those are all giant companies.

Perhaps not thousands. But do you use an online accounting package or do they use Sage or Pegasus? Do you use an online 3D modelling system or do you use Maya / Blender / 3DS Max / SolidWerks etc.? Do you use an online media player or do you use MPlayer / VLC / FFMPEG etc.? Do you play games online in a browser or do you play games written under DirectX / OpenGL that run natively? Was your time scheduled at work using an online system or a timetabling / resource management piece of software? For quotes, do you use an online system or do people use Quotewerks etc.?

People forget the massive native application market and the many years of software heritage that Windows permits them to still run. Just because giant companies create widely used applications doesn't mean that there isn't a vast myriad of other software floating around that isn't written to run in a web browser. There is a trend, particularly here on HN, to think that all software revolves around stuff done in a browser but it is narrow minded. Native software typically has a much longer lifespan.

Re: Software in 2014

#99

Post by Quarrelsome »

weland wrote: post #94
Quarrelsome wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what freezing fucking hell is a dual-core, 1 GHz computer with gigabytes of RAM and tens of gigabytes of storage and 3D acceleration that can fit in my pocket memory-starved and CPU-starved? Sounds to me like you've never developed seriously on an ARM chipset. These devices are worlds apart from your standard desktop, there is a reason that both Android and IOS dropped Adobe flash. It's partly the hardware and p…

> Sounds to me like you've never developed seriously on an ARM chipset. You're selling cucumbers to the gardener, I was actually one career choice away from designing chips, and wrote ARM assembly before there was anything such as a tablet. A mobile phone is slow in comparison to a desktop, but not slow enough to afford an excuse for lagging in most of today's mobile applications. If a Facebook client, a mail applica…

> because it's a piece of crap.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. The challenge is that developing for mobile is nowhere near _as_ _easy_ as desktop. So we have a legion of desktop devs coming over to mobile and getting lost, their code doesn't "suck" its fine for desktop its just not good mobile code. Also, power management.

Re: Software in 2014

#100

Post by alexandros »

I don't agree that mobile devices are resource-starved. Tim is an old hand so there must be concrete examples behind the words, but as stated I don't get it.

Also, it's quite easy to make fun of a language by stating one non-central feature that's counter-intuitive. End of the day, anyone working in a language seriously learns the corner cases and moves on. After a while, it's no longer relevant to them.

I did like the discussion of dynamic vs. static though. It really feels dynamic is good for early codebases and static for late. So why aren't there languages that allow you to move to static as your codebase matures? TypeScript adds optional typing but doesn't quite go the whole way unfortunately.

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